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Ftchitg
Hi,

I have just joined.

My address received a NIP for allegedly speeding in England. I live in Scotland, NIP is from an English police force - a very large number of miles from my address.

The notice accuses 112mph on 70mph motorway. I see many threads of retuning NIP unsigned for speeding in Scotland but living in England, my case is the opposite. I cannot find any information specific to my case.

I have never been in question with any law or authority in my life, all of my records are clean. My occupation depends on my driving licence. I can understand the foolishness of the drivers actions.

Can anyone provide informed advice?

Much appreciated, Many thanks.
southpaw82
You can’t (lawfully) go unsigned for an English s 172 notice, whether you live in Scotland or not. Return the notice naming the driver.
NewJudge
And your matter will be dealt with in court. The next thing you should receive is a "Single Justice Procedure Notice" (SJPN). The police have six months from the date of the offence to issue that and in most areas they take all of that.

Your SJPN will give you the option of allowing the case to be dealt with by a Single Justice, asking for a normal court appearance and pleading guilty or pleading not guilty. If you opt for the first your case will initially be heard before a "Single Justice" and you cannot attend that hearing. The guideline penalty for that speed is either a ban of up to 56 days or six points. If the SJ believes a ban should be considered your case will be adjourned for a hearing in the normal Magistrates' Court and you will be invited to attend (the SJ will not ban you in your absence). If six points is the decision, providing you do not already have more than five, you will be informed of the decision by post. Assuming you plead guilty you will also pay a fine of a week's net income, a "Victim Surcharge of 10% of the fine (minimum £34) and £85 costs.
Incandescent
Your post seems to be implying that you were not the driver of the vehicle, OR, you have never been near the location of the speeding offence thus meaning a number plate may have been misread. Can you therefore tell us whether you accept that somebody in your household was speeding in what would seem to be your car, or if you are saying the car was never at the location.
NewJudge
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 24 Jan 2021 - 11:02) *
Your post seems to be implying that you were not the driver of the vehicle, OR, you have never been near the location of the speeding offence...


That did cross my mind. But why would the OP be investigating the possibility of going "unsigned"? Perhaps he can help us.
Ftchitg
Thank you.

This is my first ever offence. No previous points.
I doubt that any plea / ‘excuse’ may lessen the blow. Will covid or my distance affect an appearance? Could this be transferred to a closer police force?

I was buying a rather powerful car, this offence states northbound M1. I admit a moment of stupidity, during daylight the road was dry on a long flat stretch with minimal traffic in a Sunday evening. Reading other threads I gather it’s best to steer away from getting carried away / not knowing it was that fast etc.

I was buying due to urgently needing a new car for work purposes, I work as a driver for a national healthcare.... not that that will work in my favour. Would you recommend I attach a cover letter explanation?

Many thanks for your comments. This is a very uncharted area for me.
TMC Towcester
At this stage you are being asked (only) to name the driver which you must do to avoid a large fine and 6 points .

However you are facing a short(ish) ban at that speed so won't get a COFP or course regardless and at some point in the next 6 months will have some sort of court case. The certainly of 100 mph or more = ban has disappeared but if (IF!) they go with 112 it's hight likely you'll get a couple of months. Unless you have spectacularly good reasons not to be banned we see man ycases here where peoples' attempts to 'explain' dig themselves a deeper hole!

So if you consider going that way, a peer review on here might be prudent!
andy_foster
Absent any catastrophic failures in the prosecution case, the only likely way to avoid a ban would be if they couldn't prove that you were driving.
Unfortunately, you are under a legal obligation to admit to being the driver. Failure to do so is a criminal offence which carries 6 points and a large fine.
cp8759
QUOTE (Ftchitg @ Sun, 24 Jan 2021 - 12:41) *
I doubt that any plea / ‘excuse’ may lessen the blow. Will covid or my distance affect an appearance? Could this be transferred to a closer police force?

No, the best you could do if for some reason you wanted to attend a court hearing is to have the case transferred to the nearest court in northern England just over the border.
Ftchitg
Thanks all for your input.

I’ll return the NIP and face the music, I don’t think it’s wise to attempt to fabricate or give excuses . Absolutely gutted and unfortunate I got caught out with a small bit of acceleration collecting my new very powerful car. I know there is nothing much I can do, other than take whatever is given.

I will seek traffic law solicitor advice and report back.
The Rookie
No point going to a solicitor, most will be less informed than the depth of knowledge you can get across this forum.

Worth reading Andy Fs post fully, carefully, again.
andy_foster
Nobody here would (or at least they shouldn't) advise you to commit a further criminal offence in order to lessen the punishment you would face, because that would be an offence in itself. However the downside of relying on cameras and threats of "tell us who was driving" or we'll give you 6 points is that sometimes the threat can be more favourable than the compliance.

However, there is a very important line between merely failing to comply with a requirement and actively fabricating a story in order to pervert the course of justice. Ignoring the s. 172 requirement would be 6 points and a large fine (technically it might be possible to still be convicted of the speeding offence, but that seems pretty unlikely). Making a false statement in response to the s. 172 requirement could well see you added to the "were prepared to go to jail in order to get away with speeding" thread.

Ultimately, it is up to you to decide how to deal with the matter and if, after understanding the options open to you, you feel that you would be happier simply facing the music then that would be the proper way to go.
TMC Towcester
As per the response above this one, but also bear in mind the endorsement code for not naming the driver will be an 'insurance issue' for 5 years - and they do load the premia big-time (as they wonder what else may have been withheld), plus the fine.

Barring a catastrophe you're facing a short-term ban of a matter of weeks. You insurers won't like that either but a lot less financially painful than the 'other option'

Maybe run some dummy quotes online to compare?

There are really vanishingly few people who can't live without driving for several weeks (professional drivers of course excepted!). As you've bought a performance car, you'll have a performance premium - so a loading on that might mean £700 becomes £2000 with an MS90 whereas a short ban might rack up a few bob in taxis etc but perhaps only £1200 for the new premium. Worth checking.
Ftchitg
I have carefully read all comments, I am struggling to understand certain terminology and ‘hints’ but I will continue to further read into before coming to a some what educated decision.

Of course the avenue of least punishment is desired, and my every effort is targeted to this as my job + more depends on it.

So far I’ve ran dummy quote scenarios with ban / points etc and quotes show close to 10k premiums... that is x4-5 my current premium!
TMC Towcester
QUOTE (Ftchitg @ Mon, 25 Jan 2021 - 13:16) *
I have carefully read all comments, I am struggling to understand certain terminology and ‘hints’ but I will continue to further read into before coming to a some what educated decision.

Of course the avenue of least punishment is desired, and my every effort is targeted to this as my job + more depends on it.

So far I’ve ran dummy quote scenarios with ban / points etc and quotes show close to 10k premiums... that is x4-5 my current premium!


Compare to an MS90 endorsement code just for interest sake of course.

You must be VERY young to pay that sort of premium........or live in a war zone! Mines group 49 and is under £500, albeit I'm over 50..............
Ftchitg
I am early 20’s with a newly acquired V8...


I am doing my best to learn as much as I can, and will continue to do so through this stressful situation. I really appreciate everyone’s help
Ftchitg
I have not went further than looking at the northants website as it seemed to be an incriminating admittance trap... I did not click on anything although I want to see what evidence they have.

For now I have to name the driver of my car (me) but I'll need to see their evidence to determine whether the threat is genuine / evidence cannot clearly prove I was driving?... This may dig myself deeper.
Following up with some research, I'm learning that providing a very apologetic letter for not attending court due to work commitments, and include letters from those who would be affected by me not having a licence, such as work, dependants, caring responsibility but i do not want to dig myself deeper.

Court appearances would be very inconvenient but possibly favourable for in person apologies ... I see that a ban cannot be issued in my absence and the court seem un-keen to reschedule hearings due to the system being strained and they want matters done on the day.
Still unsure whether a ban is the best bet to avoid longer lasting penalty points, although a ban will cost me my job. Insurance quotes may determine this?

After providing driver details... might I actually be required to attend or may i receive a letter to admit guilt / plea for less punishment?

I'm de sting whiter to get rid of the car.


Sorry for so many scenarios / thoughts. I'm doing my best to learn and think realistically.


Many Thanks
NewJudge
My post #3 outlines what should happen next. Along with your SJPN you should be served with the evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you. You are not entitled to any evidence before then. You can plead guilty in response to your SJPN and agree to your case being dealt with by an SJ but if a ban is considered it will be transferred to the normal court.

Although the SJ will not impose a ban in your absence, the normal Magistrates' Court will once you have been given the opportunity to attend. There's not really much else for you to do until you get your SJPN and I would avoid digging for too much advice on the internet as there is a lot of misleading, unhelpful and sometimes plainly incorrect advice out there. Your matter is quite straightforward and you will get any help you need here.
Gerfc1
Remember you cannot attend SJPN hearing.

They will write to you a letter to say if you will get a fine and point, also cost victim surcharge or order you to attend a court hearing.
Ftchitg
Thanks all.

I’m slowly understanding my situation, it’s a lot to take in quickly. I trust the expertise in here, I’ve only looked within this forum as I see other forums seem to be too loud.

I’ll report back in due time
Ftchitg
UPDATE


I received correspondence. The letter instructs I submit my guilty / not guilty plea along with statement of assets.


The offence is 112mph on M1.

Preferably I do not want to attend court as I live in Scotland, so will have to travel down. Likely I will loose my job as I am a driver and relieve points / heavy fine.

- My intention to plea guilty without attending court, is it worth writing anything for magistrates to consider when making their decision?
- My only assets are 2 vehicles and savings, might it be worth transferring money to someone unrelated who i trust as a payment / gift to hold?

I have some drafts being honest and apologetic etc but I don't want to dig my hole deeper / be summoned to court.



Many thanks
Jlc
That excess is unlikely to be sentenced without going to court.

However, you can try the postal single justice route and see if they award 6 points. That excess is leaning towards a short ban, say 4-8 weeks.

Transferring your assets isn't going to help. They are more interested in your earnings for sentencing.

If you don't want to attend court then you'll have to send legal representation but you'll have to pay for that. (They are not keen to ban in absence as the ban is immediate - so don't drive to court!)
NewJudge
You could include, in your return, a paragraph saying that you know there is a likelihood of receiving a ban, however you do not wish to attend court due to the distance involved (and the fact that you will not be able to drive home if banned). You could assure the court that you will not drive from the day of your hearing until you receive notification of the court's sentence (and will obviously not drive afterwards if that sentence includes a ban). The SJ may deal with it on that basis or it may be adjourned to a hearing in the normal Magistrates' Court.
notmeatloaf
It is unlikely a SJP will deal with the matter. Ar that speed they will be considering a ban which begins immediately after sentence.

There are two ways to avoid this. Either send a legal representative on your behalf, or write to the court undertaking not to drive on the day of the case until you have ascertained the sentence.
Ftchitg
Thank you all. I will consider writing a letter regarding being expecting a ban.

In the event that I could arrange transport down (my father driving to and from), from what I read, it may be more favourable for me to attend to show the prosecution respect that I'm taking it seriously and personally speak my sorry.


Many Thanks.
The Rookie
Given that an accused has no idea when the SJ will get around to considering the case, writing to them saying you wouldn’t drive until you knew the results is rather a silly can try it once you have a specific court date in the magistrates court, but for the SJ, nope... you could be waiting 3 weeks to find out you hadn’t been banned!
NewJudge
That's a good point, Rookie, but unless he attends he cannot guarantee his case being heard on a particular day. Many courts run their traffic list on the basis that they deal with attenders but then run through the rest as best they can. Any left over are (and there usually are quite a few, especially if there have been a high number of attenders) get carried over and will only be dealt with if there is any spare court capacity later in the week. My earlier post didn't make it clear that I believe if the SJ believes a ban is warranted the OP will get the usual letter with a date of a personal hearing and that he would not be banned (by the SJ) in his absence.
TMC Towcester
Maybe worth bearing in mind that much of Scotland is no further from much of England than many parts of England are from each other!! The geography/distance is possibly being over exaggerated?

Glasgow to Manchester for example vs Truro to Norwich?
cp8759
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Tue, 15 Jun 2021 - 07:03) *
Maybe worth bearing in mind that much of Scotland is no further from much of England than many parts of England are from each other!! The geography/distance is possibly being over exaggerated?

Glasgow to Manchester for example vs Truro to Norwich?

But in England you can get a case transferred to your local court by just sending a letter, and this is normally accepted as long as you aren't requiring loads of witnesses to travel and give evidence. Most people in England are going to be within a few miles of a magistrates' court, for example there are magistrates' courts in both Truro and Norwich.

But a magistrates' court cannot lawfully sit in Scotland as far as I'm aware, so the best you can do is get it transferred to the closest court across the border in Cumbia or Northumberland.
Gerfc1
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 15 Jun 2021 - 10:30) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Tue, 15 Jun 2021 - 07:03) *
Maybe worth bearing in mind that much of Scotland is no further from much of England than many parts of England are from each other!! The geography/distance is possibly being over exaggerated?

Glasgow to Manchester for example vs Truro to Norwich?

But in England you can get a case transferred to your local court by just sending a letter, and this is normally accepted as long as you aren't requiring loads of witnesses to travel and give evidence. Most people in England are going to be within a few miles of a magistrates' court, for example there are magistrates' courts in both Truro and Norwich.

But a magistrates' court cannot lawfully sit in Scotland as far as I'm aware, so the best you can do is get it transferred to the closest court across the border in Cumbia or Northumberland.


OP hasn't specific said which part of Scotland he lives in. Could be from Stornoway or Lerwick which requires a ferry or a flight to England.

There is no Magistrate Court in Scotland so the OP can ask to get it transferred to Cumbria or Northumberland. Carlisle / Newcastle.
TMC Towcester
QUOTE (Gerfc1 @ Tue, 15 Jun 2021 - 11:13) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 15 Jun 2021 - 10:30) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Tue, 15 Jun 2021 - 07:03) *
Maybe worth bearing in mind that much of Scotland is no further from much of England than many parts of England are from each other!! The geography/distance is possibly being over exaggerated?

Glasgow to Manchester for example vs Truro to Norwich?

But in England you can get a case transferred to your local court by just sending a letter, and this is normally accepted as long as you aren't requiring loads of witnesses to travel and give evidence. Most people in England are going to be within a few miles of a magistrates' court, for example there are magistrates' courts in both Truro and Norwich.

But a magistrates' court cannot lawfully sit in Scotland as far as I'm aware, so the best you can do is get it transferred to the closest court across the border in Cumbia or Northumberland.


OP hasn't specific said which part of Scotland he lives in. Could be from Stornoway or Lerwick which requires a ferry or a flight to England.




True, but having been caught in England clearly has the ability to travel there by road!
Jlc
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Tue, 15 Jun 2021 - 14:28) *
True, but having been caught in England clearly has the ability to travel there by road!

Yes, but as I noted above they may not be able to travel back if they drive themselves...
TMC Towcester
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 15 Jun 2021 - 14:30) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Tue, 15 Jun 2021 - 14:28) *
True, but having been caught in England clearly has the ability to travel there by road!

Yes, but as I noted above they may not be able to travel back if they drive themselves...


Agreed - but true of any equivalent case where the person lives elsewhere!!
Ftchitg
Thank you all for more input.

I'm will be making my plea and declarations online this weekend (Monday 21st is deadline).

The only thing I feel is sensible to include, is a request transfer of the case to a closer court. Preferably I don't want to attend but I now realise that it's best to show face and any apology statement is best said in person. The last thing I want to do is dig the hole any deeper.

I would intend to speak a genuine realisation of the offence and potential outcomes, acceptance of consequences explaining how it impacts my life for the worse, along with a sincere apology.


My location is close enough to Glasgow for those interested, I would have the ability to get driven down and back from wherever, but preferably the closer the better.
The Rookie
Carlisle would be your closest then.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Carlisl...#33;4d-2.935498
TMC Towcester
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 16 Jun 2021 - 15:06) *


Right on the West Coast Mainline by train.......maybe 90 mins tops!
cp8759
So you need to write to the court where the case is now and ask them, under section 27A of the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980, to transfer the case to Carlisle magistrates' court, see https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/43/section/27A

Might be an idea to put a draft on here before sending it off.
Ftchitg
To clarify, should I attach a letter to my plea regarding the transfer or is there a separate application for transfer of case? I have had a search and cannot find any link / application form, the link attached by cp8759 only describes the legislation.


Apologies if it is blatantly obvious, but looking into laws etc is not my field.



Ftchitg
COURT TRANSFER DRAFT

Dear (unsure who to address exactly)


I write to you with the regards to a traffic offence I am charged with. I refer to ‘Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980’ with kind request specifically to ‘Power to transfer criminal proceedings’

In the event that I am brought before the court, to be tried for a traffic offence. I kindly request that the court may transfer my case to the nearest Magistrates court before the beginning of the trial.

The purpose of this is simply due to the fact that I may face a driving ban with immediate affect, therefore driving from Glasgow to a Northamptonshire court location is not an option. Due to travel distance, I kindly request that my case is transferred to Carlisle Magistrates’ Court before the beginning of the trial as direct transport links are available from Glasgow.


Sincerely,



Can anyone provide clarity as to where I send this to? Attached to my plea return or separate application?

Many Thanks
cp8759
New draft:
QUOTE
Dear clerk to the justices,

I write to you with the regards to Chief Constable of wherever police vs Ftchitg, court reference 1234567890. I live in Glasgow and in order to attend I would need to travel a considerable distance to Northamptonshire, which would take many hours. I am also aware that I may face a driving ban with immediate effect, however upon enquiring it is apparent that a journey by public transport would require a round trip of over 10 hours.

With this in might, I would like to respectfully ask the court to exercise its powers under section 27A of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 to transfer the proceedings to Carlisle Magistrates' Court, which is only a 90 minute direct train ride from Glasgow.

Yours sincerely,


Ftchitg


Assuming it's Northampton Magistrates' Court (I don't think you've actually said), https://www.find-court-tribunal.service.gov...gistrates-court gives their email as nh.admin@justice.gov.uk

If it's a different court, you'll have to look it up on https://www.find-court-tribunal.service.gov.uk/
Ftchitg
Thank you CP8759, great draft.


All mail letters have been from Northamptonshire police, so I am assuming that it will be their court.



Many Thanks
cp8759
QUOTE (Ftchitg @ Sat, 19 Jun 2021 - 11:28) *
All mail letters have been from Northamptonshire police, so I am assuming that it will be their court.

Don't assume anything, the paperwork should say which court the case is being dealt with. If you aren't sure, post a redacted copy of the documents on here and we'll tell you. Failing that, phone the court and ask them to confirm they have your case.
Ftchitg
UPDATE

OFFENCE DATE
17/1/21

RECIEVE NIP
23/1/21

RECIEVE CHARGES
Letter sent 1/1/21
Received 3/6/21

19/6/21
- ONLINE GUILTY PLEA TO ATTEND COURT & DECLARATIONS.
- NORTHAMPTONSHIRE MAGISTRATES' COURT STATED ON EMAIL CONFIRMATION
- TRANSFER OF CASE REQUEST EMAIL SENT TO nh.admin@justice.gov.uk STATING URN & CARLISE COURT.


I am sincerely appreciative for all those who have given advice.


Many Thanks

cp8759
Great, let us know how you get on.
Ftchitg
UPDATE

OUTCOME …

6 points
Fine
No ban


Thanks all for input
Durzel
Is that the outcome you desired? Whatever you said seems to have done the trick with the magistrate.. 112mph would have been odds on for a ban, rather than points, so well done.
cp8759
Not a bad outcome and glad to hear you avoided a 10 hour round trip by train, that would have been a punishment in itself.
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