TheBarbiewithBite
Wed, 21 Apr 2021 - 18:46
Hello there
I’d be very grateful for any advise please as the response I have got from TfL seems extraordinary.
I inadvertently stopped momentarily in a yellow box junction on Battersea Bridge Road on 13 June 2020. Hands up - my bad.
I have been living in London for many years and still have an address there. However in Oct 2019 my 82 year old Dad got really sick with dementia and a whole host of complicated health conditions. So I went up to stay at his house in Cheshire to be his and my mother’s carer as up until this point my Dad had been my mother’s carer. I expected to find suitable carers and be back in London shortly. However my Dad’s health got rapidly worse and in December 2019 he was given only three months to live. I was still travelling up and down to London at week-ends. Then in March 2020 my Dad was still alive and along came Covid and lockdown. With my Dad so frail I couldn’t really risk going in and out of London regularly and so I was only going in for really essential business and when lockdown allowed. I still considered that I lived at my own flat in London, not at my Dad’s house in Cheshire (I had been staying there for a while out of necessity, not choice) and hence why I hadn’t changed the address of the registered keeper to my Dad’s house in Cheshire. It was on one such visit that I got the PCN for the yellow box incident. However I didn’t receive the paperwork pertaining to the offence as I went straight back up to Cheshire a day or two later and before the paperwork had arrived. So the next time I am down at my London address is December 2020 where I pick up the paper work informing me that the bailiffs have attempted to attend the property and I now owe £513! I didn’t even know I’d accidentally sat in the box junction until this point. So I duly changed the registered keepers address - attempting to be honest and do the right thing but it was obviously the wrong thing because next thing the baliffs turned up at my Dad’s house at 7am and I had to pay the £513. In the meantime I duly completed the OOT forms and sent them off.
In response they said:
‘In their Out of Time Statutory Declaration the Respondent stated the car is registered to their London address and they wasn’t able to attend for months at a time and was unwise consequently. The Respondent mentions they changed their address to their fathers address to avoid this happening again and an enforcement officer turned up at their Dads house and they paid £513 as requested.’
...’The grounds upon which TfL rely are as follows:.... c) the respondent does not provide any reasonable reason to explain the delay in submitting the Statutory Declaration out of time’
Nowhere on my PE2 or PE3 did I state that I was ‘unwise consequently’. Rather I stated the story as I have stated it above, which to me seems to be very reasonable. My Dad was dying / extremely vulnerable / shielding. I was his carer. The whole country had been advised not to travel if it could be avoided, especially if someone in your household was vulnerable or extremely vulnerable. None of this is stated on their response and my application was rejected.
This seems to me really unethical. Is there anything I can do to fight it and get my money back? I’m very happy to pay the PCN of course - mea culpa in the yellow box - but the tremendous build up of the debt seems wrong to me.
Many thanks for any advise.
DJ Lexy
Wed, 21 Apr 2021 - 18:59
The only way is to submit an N244. It costs £100 by post or £255 if you want to speak to a judge in person. You don’t get that money back if you win.
The official advice from this forum is to come here and ask for advice before sending in an OOT request, because what you write on it matters and you only get one shot.
Neil B
Wed, 21 Apr 2021 - 20:18
Your thread title says your OOT application has been refused but has it really? What have you actually received; show us please?
TheBarbiewithBite
Wed, 21 Apr 2021 - 21:25
QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 21 Apr 2021 - 21:18)
Your thread title says your OOT application has been refused but has it really? What have you actually received; show us please?
Oh I’ve looked again. You’re right. Thank you. It says TfL remain satisfied that the enforcement of the PCN is correct and they have challenged my OOT... you will be notified of the decision by the TEC in due course...
I will try to upload the letter tomorrow but I think I’ve answered my own question. Thank you.
QUOTE (DJ Lexy @ Wed, 21 Apr 2021 - 19:59)
The only way is to submit an N244. It costs £100 by post or £255 if you want to speak to a judge in person. You don’t get that money back if you win.
The official advice from this forum is to come here and ask for advice before sending in an OOT request, because what you write on it matters and you only get one shot.
In future I will do as you suggest. I didn’t know about this resource before otherwise would have done. Thank you.
Neil B
Wed, 21 Apr 2021 - 21:40
Well, as Tfl have objected our experience tells us TEC will indeed reject you (long story) but at least it gives you a head start.
We will also need to see exactly what you submitted to TEC for your OOT.
Well, as Tfl have objected our experience tells us TEC will indeed reject you (long story) but at least it gives you a head start.
We will also need to see exactly what you submitted to TEC for your OOT.
TheBarbiewithBite
Fri, 30 Apr 2021 - 14:58
As you predicted the TEC has now refused my application.
Neil B
Fri, 30 Apr 2021 - 15:31
It's a disgraceful objection by TfL in the circumstances.
Your OOT was a mess, with the important info mostly on the wrong form, but you did explain, quite clearly, somewhere.
You have until 13th May to file an N244 application, if you want to.
It must not be rushed. I'll help with the form because it's a bit daunting.
hcandersen
Sat, 1 May 2021 - 11:48
OP, the registered keeper address and your father's condition are not really the issues. Anyone contemplating an extended period away from their residence should make arrangements for their mail to be managed or risk what could be serious consequences. The obvious alternative was to put in place mail redirection. To be honest, while a judge would be sympathetic to your family circumstances, IMO they're bound to ask why you did not make proper arrangements for the management of your personal business given that you contemplated being away from your residence for months.
And let's look at this period.
You say that when you returned home for a visit you found the second notice from the enforcement agents and presumably every other notice and then returned to Cheshire. This would imply you having been away continuously for over 5 months. And then you didn't contact the agent but instead changed the registered keeper address. The judge would be bound to wonder why you did not contact the bailiffs but instead simply changed addresses and waited until the agents visited. The period between you changing keeper address and them visiting your parents is an unknown.
And of course the OOT and the penalty are only one strand.
You say you changed your registered keeper address - what was the effective date, look at the 'docref' date in your V5C?
And the agent visited this address on **** and you paid £513.
Why is my question, given that as far as we know:
No Notice of Enforcement was served at your parents' address;
The address at which the bailiff attempted to serve the warrant was NOT on the warrant;
You could have paid this sum as soon as you found the agent's notices, **** weeks/months before??
TheBarbiewithBite
Mon, 24 May 2021 - 09:22
I did contact the bailiff when I discovered the issue. I told them my circumstances and they referred me to the court and the OOT notice, which I duly completed. It is correct I was away for 5 months and with everything going on changing the registered address of my car was not my priority. If I’d have given it a single thought I’d probably have changed it but I didn’t due to overwhelming circumstances. I hear what you’re saying, on paper I’m in the wrong, and I get that. I just happen to believe - naively no doubt - that there should be some space for humanity in all of this. My father’s condition clearly isn’t the issue for the court and TfL and the bailiff but for me it really is. And if the shoe were on the other foot it would be for them as well. The system fails to take humanity into account even one single shred.
Anyway, thanks for your feedback.
cp8759
Mon, 24 May 2021 - 10:16
It's unfortunate you didn't take up Neil's offer to help you with an application for review.
TheBarbiewithBite
Mon, 24 May 2021 - 10:29
Yes. I wrote and thanked him for his very kind offer. I wanted to but the timing was too tight and I missed the deadline. This whole thing has been very frustrating and costly at an already very difficult time.
Gerfc1
Mon, 24 May 2021 - 10:47
QUOTE (TheBarbiewithBite @ Mon, 24 May 2021 - 11:29)
Yes. I wrote and thanked him for his very kind offer. I wanted to but the timing was too tight and I missed the deadline. This whole thing has been very frustrating and costly at an already very difficult time.
I know it seems harsh but the law would not do much for people who cares someone who has illness. On the other hand the Council wants money and have no reponses despite sending at least 3 letters 28 days / 14 days apart.
I hope this is a lession learned and in future ensure you have arrangements for mail or set up mail redirection.
OR inform DVLA with new address (it is online nowsday) on each of your vehicle.
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