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Benny130
I have 2 incoming speeding fines. I was not the registered keeper of either car but a request for drivers details has come in for the same stretch of road in different cars 15 mins apart, to the company I work for. I was taking one car to a destination and caught on an average speed check at 78 in a 80. Collected a different car and drove same stretch of road in opposite direction and caught doing 82 in a 50.

I currently have a clean license. My work depends on me having a driving license. I am the only provider for my wife and kids. have a mortgage etc.

Any advice would be most welcome to try to avoid a ban and potentially losing my job.
The Rookie
Both those offences will likely attract 6 points each leaving you at risk of a 6 months 'totting ban' unless you can show it would cause exceptional hardship, loss of a job is NOT considered, of itself, exceptional by the courts.

Both will progress to court as both are too fast for any out of court settlement, as such it's likely it will be at least 6 months from now (unless these were committed in Scotland when it may be as much as 12 months) before it gets to court.

Where was this, what time of day, permanent or temporary limit? Your best chance is in showing somehow that the limit signed wasn't enforceable in which case you will just be convicted for the excess over the national speed limit.
andy_foster
QUOTE (Benny130 @ Thu, 6 May 2021 - 15:44) *
I was taking one car to a destination and caught on an average speed check at 78 in a 80. Collected a different car and drove same stretch of road in opposite direction and caught doing 82 in a 50.


Presumably both were in the same 50 limit?
Benny130
It was A320 St peters way. Just recently become average speed check which makes me think the signage will be correct but ill need to drive the route again to be sure

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Thu, 6 May 2021 - 16:14) *
QUOTE (Benny130 @ Thu, 6 May 2021 - 15:44) *
I was taking one car to a destination and caught on an average speed check at 78 in a 80. Collected a different car and drove same stretch of road in opposite direction and caught doing 82 in a 50.


Presumably both were in the same 50 limit?


Yes thats correct
NewJudge
Providing there are no problems with the legality of the limit and the signage, I think you should begin to prepare an “Exceptional Hardship” argument. Here’s Magistrates’ guidance when dealing with such a plea:

When considering whether there are grounds to reduce or avoid a totting up disqualification the court should have regard to the following:

It is for the offender to prove to the civil standard of proof that such grounds exist. Other than very exceptionally, this will require evidence from the offender, and where such evidence is given, it must be sworn.

Where it is asserted that hardship would be caused, the court must be satisfied that it is not merely inconvenience, or hardship, but exceptional hardship for which the court must have evidence.

Almost every disqualification entails hardship for the person disqualified and their immediate family. This is part of the deterrent objective of the provisions combined with the preventative effect of the order not to drive.

If a motorist continues to offend after becoming aware of the risk to their licence of further penalty points, the court can take this circumstance into account.

Courts should be cautious before accepting assertions of exceptional hardship without evidence that alternatives (including alternative means of transport) for avoiding exceptional hardship are not viable.

Loss of employment will be an inevitable consequence of a driving ban for many people. Evidence that loss of employment would follow from disqualification is not in itself sufficient to demonstrate exceptional hardship; whether or not it does will depend on the circumstances of the offender and the consequences of that loss of employment on the offender and/or others.


So you need to demonstrate that the hardship you and/or others will suffer is over and above that would be suffered by other drivers. When explaining to the court that you will lose your job, firstly you will need to present evidence of that (e.g. a letter from your employer) and then go on to explain why alternative employment, not requiring you to drive, is not possible. You will also need to explain why you think the consequences of a ban are “exceptional” (bearing in mind the above guidance). Bear in mind that you will have had some time to investigate such possibilities and the court will expect you to have investigated the possibility thoroughly. If you post your ideas up here you will get some views on your chance of success.
Jlc
Give that a totting ban is looking likely then it's probably worth a long shot of asking the bench to consider it 'on the same occasion'. That will take some convincing though given the change of vehicle but perhaps it can be suggested it was 'over the course of the same journey'.

QUOTE (Benny130 @ Thu, 6 May 2021 - 15:44) *
I currently have a clean license. My work depends on me having a driving license. I am the only provider for my wife and kids. have a mortgage etc.

Any advice would be most welcome to try to avoid a ban and potentially losing my job.

You need to start preparing an Exceptional Hardship plea. It has to be exceptional and losing your job, in itself, may not be considered as such. You need to concentrate on the impact on others (including your firm).


Whilst how the points where accumulated are not considered for the EH plea, the individual excesses are not insignificant and that might work against you for the same occasion consideration. The bench could consider shorter bans for the offences but the guidance works against you.
notmeatloaf
Ask the council for a copy of the TRO - limit has been there for a long time but might as well scrape the barrel.

Also, return the two S172s together with your very best begging letter saying that you mistakenly didn't realise the limit on this road, speed kills, clean licence, didn't have a chance to amend driving, Do not attempt to mitigate, but ask if they could consider the offences together. Unlikely as both are >70mph but cost nothing.

As others have said, otherwise you face an almost certain 12 points and totting ban. For your job do you rely on trade insurance, and is there a cap on the number of points you can have (often 6)?

Loss of employment is not normally regarded as exceptional hardship but loss of home may be (Owen vs Jones). However, the court would ask what alternatives you have considered (temporary move to a different role etc.) when considering your EH plea.
Benny130
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Thu, 6 May 2021 - 16:55) *
Ask the council for a copy of the TRO - limit has been there for a long time but might as well scrape the barrel.

Also, return the two S172s together with your very best begging letter saying that you mistakenly didn't realise the limit on this road, speed kills, clean licence, didn't have a chance to amend driving, Do not attempt to mitigate, but ask if they could consider the offences together. Unlikely as both are >70mph but cost nothing.

As others have said, otherwise you face an almost certain 12 points and totting ban. For your job do you rely on trade insurance, and is there a cap on the number of points you can have (often 6)?

Loss of employment is not normally regarded as exceptional hardship but loss of home may be (Owen vs Jones). However, the court would ask what alternatives you have considered (temporary move to a different role etc.) when considering your EH plea.


I dont belive there is a cap on points for our trade insurance
The Slithy Tove
QUOTE (Benny130 @ Thu, 6 May 2021 - 16:25) *
It was A320 St peters way. Just recently become average speed check which makes me think the signage will be correct but ill need to drive the route again to be sure

If it's the A320 as you come off the M25, then it's been 50 for a good while now, IIRC. And Google confirms back to 2015 that it's 50. The installation of average speed cameras suggests too many have been taking liberties over time.
andy_foster
The issue is that you are potentially facing a 6 month totting up ban for events which occurred (or were observed) within the space of a tea break. Obviously, you want to try to avoid this happening, whether by getting a decision maker in the chain of events to take pity on you, or through the legal process. Managing to get caught in 2 different vehicles in such a short space of time is quite an achievement, but do not expect anyone in the chain to congratulate you.

The fist link in the chain is the SCP. There is no chance of getting a course or a COFP, but there is a remote chance you might be able to persuade them to treat the matter as a single incident.

If both charges proceed to court, and if you are convicted, the court is required to endorse your licence with 3-6 points (or a ban) per speeding offence unless they find that they were committed on the same occasion. The sentencing guidelines say 6 points or a short ban (for each offence), but the court is not legally bound by the guidelines. However, if they deviate from them they need to give a reason.
If you can persuade the court to give you less than 12 points (assuming that you had no relevant points when the offence(s) was(were) committed, then you would not tot up.

If you tot up to 12 points, the court would then be required by law to ban you for at least 6 months (in practice exactly 6 months unless you have been banned in the previous 3 years) unless they find that doing so would cause exceptional hardship, in which case they could reduce the length of the ban or not ban you at all.
Benny130
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Thu, 6 May 2021 - 19:22) *
The issue is that you are potentially facing a 6 month totting up ban for events which occurred (or were observed) within the space of a tea break. Obviously, you want to try to avoid this happening, whether by getting a decision maker in the chain of events to take pity on you, or through the legal process. Managing to get caught in 2 different vehicles in such a short space of time is quite an achievement, but do not expect anyone in the chain to congratulate you.

The fist link in the chain is the SCP. There is no chance of getting a course or a COFP, but there is a remote chance you might be able to persuade them to treat the matter as a single incident.

If both charges proceed to court, and if you are convicted, the court is required to endorse your licence with 3-6 points (or a ban) per speeding offence unless they find that they were committed on the same occasion. The sentencing guidelines say 6 points or a short ban (for each offence), but the court is not legally bound by the guidelines. However, if they deviate from them they need to give a reason.
If you can persuade the court to give you less than 12 points (assuming that you had no relevant points when the offence(s) was(were) committed, then you would not tot up.

If you tot up to 12 points, the court would then be required by law to ban you for at least 6 months (in practice exactly 6 months unless you have been banned in the previous 3 years) unless they find that doing so would cause exceptional hardship, in which case they could reduce the length of the ban or not ban you at all.



Very helpful thanks. And how do i go about getting the idea of them giving me 5 points + 6 points as a worst case in their heads?
Gerfc1
QUOTE (Benny130 @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 12:35) *
Very helpful thanks. And how do i go about getting the idea of them giving me 5 points + 6 points as a worst case in their heads?


5 points is possible in Scotland if you pleaded guilty but no chance they will drop to 5 points. It is 6 points for that speed or a short ban. However you will incurr 12 points and the Court would prefer that to ban you under totting up for 6 months.

Your 2 options are to try treat them as 1 offence otherwise bring an EH argument.
Durzel
This is more directed at others rather than the OP..

Is there not an argument to be made for being given the ability to moderate your driving? That is, after all, the intention of the points system - to add as (several) warnings.

If you’d been prosecuted for the first offence and got 6 points the likelihood is that you’d “learn your lesson” and slow down. Leaving the house one day on zero points and getting home on (potentially) 12 seems a bit crazy to me, at least for speeding offences where you could - and were in this instance - oblivious to having been caught.

The fact the limit on the road has been 50 for a while is not great. If it had recently been NSL and was reduced with the introduction of average speed cameras then this would’ve been a credible argument for “being caught out”. As it is, it appears from the excess that you just didn’t particularly care that it was a 50mph limit.
andy_foster
QUOTE (Durzel @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 13:21) *
Is there not an argument to be made for being given the ability to moderate your driving? That is, after all, the intention of the points system - to add as (several) warnings.


IMHO that is pretty much the only argument to be made - that whilst the OP has 'brought this upon himself', the intentions of the totting up system and the interests of justice are arguably not well served by rigid adherence to the guidelines of the sausage machine. IMHO it would be utterly futile to try to argue that the relevant legislation regarding totting up should somehow be interpreted as to not applying in the OP's case, if the relevant decisions makers feel strongly enough that it would be injust or unfair for him to get 12 points for this matter, they could potentially be persuaded to apply the discretion that the law allows them - whether that is the SCP only prosecuting one of the offences or the magistrates going outside of their sentencing guidelines.

Being human, the magistrates are perhaps more likely to be amenable to finding that the 2 offences were committed on the same occasion, if they have sympathy for the OP's predicament. However, technically their feeling should not have any bearing on their finding.
666
QUOTE (Gerfc1 @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 12:55) *
QUOTE (Benny130 @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 12:35) *
Very helpful thanks. And how do i go about getting the idea of them giving me 5 points + 6 points as a worst case in their heads?


5 points is possible in Scotland if you pleaded guilty but no chance they will drop to 5 points. It is 6 points for that speed or a short ban. However you will incurr 12 points and the Court would prefer that to ban you under totting up for 6 months.

Your 2 options are to try treat them as 1 offence otherwise bring an EH argument.

First, "six points or a short ban" is a guideline: it is not mandatory.

Second, the same guidelines say "If sentencing an offender for more than one offence, or where the offender is already serving a sentence, consider whether the total sentence is just and proportionate to the overall offending behaviour in accordance with the Totality guideline."
TMC Towcester
QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 15:25) *
QUOTE (Gerfc1 @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 12:55) *
QUOTE (Benny130 @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 12:35) *
Very helpful thanks. And how do i go about getting the idea of them giving me 5 points + 6 points as a worst case in their heads?


5 points is possible in Scotland if you pleaded guilty but no chance they will drop to 5 points. It is 6 points for that speed or a short ban. However you will incurr 12 points and the Court would prefer that to ban you under totting up for 6 months.

Your 2 options are to try treat them as 1 offence otherwise bring an EH argument.

First, "six points or a short ban" is a guideline: it is not mandatory.

Second, the same guidelines say "If sentencing an offender for more than one offence, or where the offender is already serving a sentence, consider whether the total sentence is just and proportionate to the overall offending behaviour in accordance with the Totality guideline."


Get tbe wrong Mag though and doing 12 mph over the national limit anywhere (so maybe 85-90 on the speedo) for potentially 15 minutes or more, may not go down too well?
Durzel
QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 15:25) *
QUOTE (Gerfc1 @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 12:55) *
QUOTE (Benny130 @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 12:35) *
Very helpful thanks. And how do i go about getting the idea of them giving me 5 points + 6 points as a worst case in their heads?


5 points is possible in Scotland if you pleaded guilty but no chance they will drop to 5 points. It is 6 points for that speed or a short ban. However you will incurr 12 points and the Court would prefer that to ban you under totting up for 6 months.

Your 2 options are to try treat them as 1 offence otherwise bring an EH argument.

First, "six points or a short ban" is a guideline: it is not mandatory.

Second, the same guidelines say "If sentencing an offender for more than one offence, or where the offender is already serving a sentence, consider whether the total sentence is just and proportionate to the overall offending behaviour in accordance with the Totality guideline."

I think that guidance is for when someone is charged for several offences at the same time, i.e. that you'd get the points from the more serious offence, the higher number of them, rather than e.g. 3 points for every bald tyre, 3 points for speeding before being pulled over, etc.

In this instance there would be two prosecutions for two offences. I think it would be hard to argue them as being part of one consecutive journey, especially since it was in opposite directions in two different vehicles.
666
QUOTE (Durzel @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 15:54) *
QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 15:25) *
QUOTE (Gerfc1 @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 12:55) *
QUOTE (Benny130 @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 12:35) *
Very helpful thanks. And how do i go about getting the idea of them giving me 5 points + 6 points as a worst case in their heads?


5 points is possible in Scotland if you pleaded guilty but no chance they will drop to 5 points. It is 6 points for that speed or a short ban. However you will incurr 12 points and the Court would prefer that to ban you under totting up for 6 months.

Your 2 options are to try treat them as 1 offence otherwise bring an EH argument.

First, "six points or a short ban" is a guideline: it is not mandatory.

Second, the same guidelines say "If sentencing an offender for more than one offence, or where the offender is already serving a sentence, consider whether the total sentence is just and proportionate to the overall offending behaviour in accordance with the Totality guideline."

I think that guidance is for when someone is charged for several offences at the same time, i.e. that you'd get the points from the more serious offence, the higher number of them, rather than e.g. 3 points for every bald tyre, 3 points for speeding before being pulled over, etc.

In this instance there would be two prosecutions for two offences. I think it would be hard to argue them as being part of one consecutive journey, especially since it was in opposite directions in two different vehicles.

No, the "higher number" rule is actually law, not a guideline. [Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, section 28(4)]

Whether it was one journey or not is is irrelevant so far as the Totality Principle is concerned.
NewJudge
QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 15:25) *
Second, the same guidelines say "If sentencing an offender for more than one offence, or where the offender is already serving a sentence, consider whether the total sentence is just and proportionate to the overall offending behaviour in accordance with the Totality guideline."

Let's assume that these incidents are treated by the court as separate offences (which I believe they will be).

The "Totality" principle is not really appropriate when concurrently sentencing a number of driving offences when those offences occurred on different occasions. The guideline sentence for each offence is six points. If they occurred some time apart and were sentenced at different hearings there would be no question of "Totality" coming into play. The defendant would arrive in court with six points on his record and could look forward to having a further six imposed. Once it has been established that these are to be treated as separate offences there is no justification to consider "totality" simply because they are being sentenced at the same time.
southpaw82
Does the totality principle even apply to points? I’ve not seen any authority on it.
NewJudge
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 7 May 2021 - 17:53) *
Does the totality principle even apply to points? I’ve not seen any authority on it.

No, I don't think it does. It certainly cannot reduce the total points tally to below the minimum for each offence. The "Totality" guidance centres around custody and community orders, thoughi t does touch on disqualifications (both mandatory and discretionary). Points are not mentioned at all as far as i can see. If a defendant was being sentenced for two offences for which the guidance is three points each he would receive six. I don't really see any difference if the guidance suggests six points for each.
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