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RNA_World_fan
Hi All,
Have a question about my COFP, which is probably too dumb to ask.
Basically, I got COFP for driving my own e-scooter on a cycle lane / cycle route. Having read a related thread (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=137337 ), I understand that I have no defence and should accept the COFP offer ASAP. To be honest, I still have difficulty accepting it as a fair charge, given that (i) I had been standing still for quite a long time before the police arrived, so the officer could not possibly see me driving the scooter before he approached me, (ii) the police officer made a full impression that I would not be prosecuted this time but would definitely have problems if caught again - my understanding was also that he was taking my details to send me educational paperwork (yes, I was that thick!) as the PO was letting me go with my e-scooter with the final kind words that he “would not like to see me out of pocket” (I can only imagine now how he was laughing inside while saying that). Yes, stupid me. Like many, I knew that all e-scooters were illegal in the UK a couple of years back, but mistakenly thought that once the rental e-scooters went public, the law would now cover all scooters. The mere thought that some goods could be only legal if rented but not privately owned was counterintuitive to me, to say the least. Anyway, now I need to pay £300 and get my duly owned 6 points (even though they tease me in their COFP letter that I can get as little as 3 if I go to court – my goodness, no way, I already know the value of their promises). So my question is: I have two driving licenses, the UK and the overseas one. I never used the foreign licence in my life, but I have it. The paper form I am filling to send along with the driving licence has GB and overseas licence holder options. Can I surrender the overseas driving licence rather than the British one when paying FP?
Thank you for your time. The answer is probably NO, but I thought it was worth checking just in case.

R..
The Rookie
Well you could, but it’s you that earns the points and not your licence, if they realise it’s you then the will be added to your U.K. driver record regardless and you would have to declare them for insurance purposes.

The CoFP is presumably from riding a motor vehicle while uninsured, so the cycle lane big isn’t relevant.
RNA_World_fan
I see, thank you.
TonyS
If it is indeed for riding without insurance, then I think 6 points is the minimum.
RNA_World_fan
Yes, 'use a motor vehicle on a road / public place without third party insurance'.
Yet the COFP letter goes: "The above offence carries a MAXIMUM penalty of £1000 and the endorsement of between three and six penalty points". I am sure in reality it is 6 anyway.
TMC Towcester
Ignorance of the law is no defence of course.

If you are now ordinarily UK resident, then it's your UK licence that is 'relevant' and will get endorsed, Remember to check your (vehicle) insurance policy as some require immediate notification of traffic convictions.
RNA_World_fan
Thank you, good point.
baroudeur
QUOTE (RNA_World_fan @ Mon, 17 May 2021 - 15:55) *
Hi All,
Have a question about my COFP, which is probably too dumb to ask.
Basically, I got COFP for driving my own e-scooter on a cycle lane / cycle route. Having read a related thread (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=137337 ), I understand that I have no defence and should accept the COFP offer ASAP. To be honest, I still have difficulty accepting it as a fair charge, given that (i) I had been standing still for quite a long time before the police arrived, so the officer could not possibly see me driving the scooter before he approached me, (ii) the police officer made a full impression that I would not be prosecuted this time but would definitely have problems if caught again - my understanding was also that he was taking my details to send me educational paperwork (yes, I was that thick!) as the PO was letting me go with my e-scooter with the final kind words that he “would not like to see me out of pocket” (I can only imagine now how he was laughing inside while saying that). Yes, stupid me. Like many, I knew that all e-scooters were illegal in the UK a couple of years back, but mistakenly thought that once the rental e-scooters went public, the law would now cover all scooters. The mere thought that some goods could be only legal if rented but not privately owned was counterintuitive to me, to say the least. Anyway, now I need to pay £300 and get my duly owned 6 points (even though they tease me in their COFP letter that I can get as little as 3 if I go to court – my goodness, no way, I already know the value of their promises). So my question is: I have two driving licenses, the UK and the overseas one. I never used the foreign licence in my life, but I have it. The paper form I am filling to send along with the driving licence has GB and overseas licence holder options. Can I surrender the overseas driving licence rather than the British one when paying FP?
Thank you for your time. The answer is probably NO, but I thought it was worth checking just in case.

R..


You can only have obtained your UK licence by converting your foreign licence with DVLA or by taking a UK driving test.

Either way, if you supplied your correct personal details when stopped then your UK licence is the only one in play.
RNA_World_fan
Yes, thank you, I get the picture. The driving test it was.
Ahelpinggand
Also worth noting that the officer who stops you has no say in any punishment, indeed they regularly state a course may be offered. Whether this is due to lack of knowledge or to minimise confrontation who knows.

Assuming you were given a TOR then the decision is made by the central ticket office and as insurance is a strict liability offense it's an easy one to prosecute
little-freddie
QUOTE (RNA_World_fan @ Mon, 17 May 2021 - 17:35) *
Yes, thank you, I get the picture. The driving test it was.



How long ago did you take your UK driving test?? Would the O.P. be classed as a 'new' driver, if less than 2 years ago??? Legal Eagles will advise...
The Rookie
Yes, it’s within 2 years of passing regardless of history.
RNA_World_fan
<<<Also worth noting that the officer who stops you has no say in any punishment, indeed they regularly state a course may be offered. Whether this is due to lack of knowledge or to minimise confrontation who knows.

Assuming you were given a TOR then the decision is made by the central ticket office and as insurance is a strict liability offense it's an easy one to prosecute>>>

Yes, many thanks for explaining it, the more reason for me to accept the offer of FP.

<<<How long ago did you take your UK driving test?? Would the O.P. be classed as a 'new' driver, if less than 2 years ago??? Legal Eagles will advise...>>>

Oh, that was ages ago. I have been living in the UK for almost 20 years. Thank you and thanks everyone for your advice, and I just agree that I should deal with this in a straightforward way.
NewJudge
QUOTE (RNA_World_fan @ Mon, 17 May 2021 - 16:24) *
Yes, 'use a motor vehicle on a road / public place without third party insurance'.
Yet the COFP letter goes: "The above offence carries a MAXIMUM penalty of £1000 and the endorsement of between three and six penalty points". I am sure in reality it is 6 anyway.

No insurance carries a minimum of six and a maximum of eight points. Like all offences which carry an endorsement the court can impose a disqualification instead of points.
notmeatloaf
If you definitely didn't move on the scooter in the period the police saw you I would 100% be disputing this.

The offence is when you "use" a vehicle on a road or other public place. If you were not using the vehicle at the time, no offence has been committed.

Unlike a car, there is no requirement for insurance between periods when the vehicle is being used.

Scooters can be picked up and carried. Unless you told the police, there is no proof you traveled to that point on the scooter. You cannot lie and say you didn't, but you can require the prosecution to prove you used the scooter. You cannot be forced to give evidence that incriminates you, although a negative inference can be drawn if you refuse to answer questions.

Bearing in mind the impact no insurance points has if you need to buy a car insurance policy, it is worth fighting if you need or intend to need car insurance in the next few years.
southpaw82
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 17 May 2021 - 23:55) *
The offence is when you "use" a vehicle on a road or other public place. If you were not using the vehicle at the time, no offence has been committed.

Unlike a car, there is no requirement for insurance between periods when the vehicle is being used.

Are you sure about this?
Logician
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 17 May 2021 - 22:55) *
If you definitely didn't move on the scooter in the period the police saw you I would 100% be disputing this.

The offence is when you "use" a vehicle on a road or other public place. If you were not using the vehicle at the time, no offence has been committed.


There is case law to the effect that a person having custody and control of a vehicle may be using it without ever driving it. A person who has hold of a scooter on a public road would inevitably be determined to be using it, I think.
TMC Towcester
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 17 May 2021 - 23:55) *
If you definitely didn't move on the scooter in the period the police saw you I would 100% be disputing this.

The offence is when you "use" a vehicle on a road or other public place. If you were not using the vehicle at the time, no offence has been committed.

Unlike a car, there is no requirement for insurance between periods when the vehicle is being used.

Scooters can be picked up and carried. Unless you told the police, there is no proof you traveled to that point on the scooter. You cannot lie and say you didn't, but you can require the prosecution to prove you used the scooter. You cannot be forced to give evidence that incriminates you, although a negative inference can be drawn if you refuse to answer questions.

Bearing in mind the impact no insurance points has if you need to buy a car insurance policy, it is worth fighting if you need or intend to need car insurance in the next few years.


A very risky approach IMO. The chances of anyone walking around carying a scooter to/from home/work etc without using it is plainly zero. This could make a simple matter very, very uncomfortable. Let's be honest here - under oath - will you say you hadn't ridden it on a public road that day?
The Rookie
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 17 May 2021 - 23:55) *
Unlike a car, there is no requirement for insurance between periods when the vehicle is being used.

It's a motor vehicle, if it's on the road it has to be insured, even parked.

'Used' does not necessarily mean being ridden.

As for continuous insurance, that is tracked by DVLA against registered vehicles, The RSA specifies it only applies to registered vehicles, but if you raise that they then may consider the offence of suing an unregistered vehicle on the road.
TonyS
Wasn't there a drink driving case where the accused was actually parked at the time he was tested, but the court decided that beyond reasonable doubt he must have been driving shortly beforehand. I couldn't find the case when I looked recently, have a vague memory he was waiting for a ferry at the time he was caught. Someone cited the case when we were discussing mobile phone use.
RNA_World_fan
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 17 May 2021 - 23:55) *
If you definitely didn't move on the scooter in the period the police saw you I would 100% be disputing this.

The offence is when you "use" a vehicle on a road or other public place. If you were not using the vehicle at the time, no offence has been committed.

Unlike a car, there is no requirement for insurance between periods when the vehicle is being used.

Scooters can be picked up and carried. Unless you told the police, there is no proof you traveled to that point on the scooter. You cannot lie and say you didn't, but you can require the prosecution to prove you used the scooter. You cannot be forced to give evidence that incriminates you, although a negative inference can be drawn if you refuse to answer questions.

Bearing in mind the impact no insurance points has if you need to buy a car insurance policy, it is worth fighting if you need or intend to need car insurance in the next few years.


Thank you. Well, the problem was the PO let me carry on with my journey. I was not moving before was "stopped" but the PO made sure I was moving afterwards.
baroudeur
QUOTE (RNA_World_fan @ Tue, 18 May 2021 - 09:47) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 17 May 2021 - 23:55) *
If you definitely didn't move on the scooter in the period the police saw you I would 100% be disputing this.

The offence is when you "use" a vehicle on a road or other public place. If you were not using the vehicle at the time, no offence has been committed.

Unlike a car, there is no requirement for insurance between periods when the vehicle is being used.

Scooters can be picked up and carried. Unless you told the police, there is no proof you traveled to that point on the scooter. You cannot lie and say you didn't, but you can require the prosecution to prove you used the scooter. You cannot be forced to give evidence that incriminates you, although a negative inference can be drawn if you refuse to answer questions.

Bearing in mind the impact no insurance points has if you need to buy a car insurance policy, it is worth fighting if you need or intend to need car insurance in the next few years.


Thank you. Well, the problem was the PO let me carry on with my journey. I was not moving before was "stopped" but the PO made sure I was moving afterwards.


In your opening post you stated "Basically, I got COFP for driving my own e-scooter on a cycle lane / cycle route" so are you sure that you weren't seen riding the scooter before being "stopped" and a message relayed to the officer?
Mrgreenie
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Tue, 18 May 2021 - 15:39) *
In your opening post you stated "Basically, I got COFP for driving my own e-scooter on a cycle lane / cycle route" so are you sure that you weren't seen riding the scooter before being "stopped" and a message relayed to the officer?


It's possible that part of the cycle lane or adjacent road was covered by CCTV and that RNA_World_fan was reported to the police by the CCTV operator.
RNA_World_fan
<<<In your opening post you stated "Basically, I got COFP for driving my own e-scooter on a cycle lane / cycle route" so are you sure that you weren't seen riding the scooter before being "stopped" and a message relayed to the officer?>>>

Sorry for not being clear. I was driving on the cycle lane and stopped at the red lights, where the cycle lane merges with the pedestrian pathway and crosses the road. It was a very long red light, so I was waiting and waiting, and finally the police car arrived. The road is a bit bendy with not a great view on approach to the traffic lights. So IMO, from the timing of the events, there was no chance the PO could actually see me driving the scooter, before he decided to pull me over. Well, I did not see the police car the moment I stopped, although I did not look specifically. But after reading this and a few other threads, I get the glimpse of the whole picture of how these things work, and really doubt if anything could make a big difference to the outcome. So I've already payed the fee and sent off the driving licence to them.
The Rookie
Ok, slam dunk using (you don’t have to be ‘riding it’ as you put it), not that I thought you had any chance of a defence anyway, but yes, that confirms it.
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