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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
beerfan
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - May 2021
Date of the NIP: - 4 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A417 ASHPERTON, HEREFORDSHIRE, UNITED KINGDOM
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Driver was riding a motorcycle, caught by mobile police van. It was around one of those 30 mph villages after a derestricted 60 mph road. Driver doubts they were going as fast as recorded but no evidence given and I know none is required. No excuses really sad.gif

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Thu, 20 May 2021 18:26:52 +0000
Jlc
Any questions? Unfortunately this can probably only be dealt with at court.

Likely outcome 6 points, fine around 1 week's relevant earnings, cost of £85 & surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £34).
andy_foster
As you have already mentioned, you are not entitled to see any evidence at this stage, but if you ask for any photos 'to help to identify the driver' (do not elaborate or make a false statement) they will often oblige. Obviously, this is most effective if done before naming the driver, and does not necessarily stop the 28 day clock to do so.
beerfan
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Fri, 21 May 2021 - 00:18) *
As you have already mentioned, you are not entitled to see any evidence at this stage, but if you ask for any photos 'to help to identify the driver' (do not elaborate or make a false statement) they will often oblige. Obviously, this is most effective if done before naming the driver, and does not necessarily stop the 28 day clock to do so.


There's just the 1 driver registered to ride the motorcycle, would this still work? It's just an excuse to see their evidence right? How would I go about asking for the evidence? Is that with a cover letter when responding to the NIP?


For what it's worth, I hit the brakes down to 30 as soon as I saw the police van. Could this make their case harder? Also it was one of those 30 mph rural villages, no pavement and streetlighting if I recall correctly (may be wrong) - I could find the exact location on google maps if anyone is interested. Also this will be my first points in 10 years of driving.
Coming around the corner before the police van, I knew I was above the speed limit but I'm very surprised to see it clocked as high as 52. Is miscalibration possible?
Does anyone know which court I will be summoned to? Will it be in West Mercia à la West Mercia Police?
I'm happy to go to court, I'm a polite and respectful person so hopefully the judge won't dislike me too much, but I'm no legal expert.
Would it be possible to choose the temporary driving suspension (or do they call it disqualification?) rather than the points on the license? I don't need to drive to work so the suspension is not a huge issue. If I got the suspension instead of points would that make it so that this speeding incident will not affect future insurance premiums?

Thanks for your help!
TMC Towcester
QUOTE (beerfan @ Fri, 21 May 2021 - 13:35) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Fri, 21 May 2021 - 00:18) *
As you have already mentioned, you are not entitled to see any evidence at this stage, but if you ask for any photos 'to help to identify the driver' (do not elaborate or make a false statement) they will often oblige. Obviously, this is most effective if done before naming the driver, and does not necessarily stop the 28 day clock to do so.


There's just the 1 driver registered to ride the motorcycle, would this still work? It's just an excuse to see their evidence right? How would I go about asking for the evidence? Is that with a cover letter when responding to the NIP?


For what it's worth, I hit the brakes down to 30 as soon as I saw the police van. Could this make their case harder? Also it was one of those 30 mph rural villages, no pavement and streetlighting if I recall correctly (may be wrong) - I could find the exact location on google maps if anyone is interested. Also this will be my first points in 10 years of driving.
Coming around the corner before the police van, I knew I was above the speed limit but I'm very surprised to see it clocked as high as 52. Is miscalibration possible?
Does anyone know which court I will be summoned to? Will it be in West Mercia à la West Mercia Police?
I'm happy to go to court, I'm a polite and respectful person so hopefully the judge won't dislike me too much, but I'm no legal expert.
Would it be possible to choose the temporary driving suspension (or do they call it disqualification?) rather than the points on the license? I don't need to drive to work so the suspension is not a huge issue. If I got the suspension instead of points would that make it so that this speeding incident will not affect future insurance premiums?

Thanks for your help!


Do not mention 'evidence'. Write (now) asking for any images '...to assist in identifying the rider...' You need to do this BEFORE returning the NIP (as you'll show you know who was riding on the NIP - doh!). Your policy is irrelevant as someone else could in theory ride your bike with 3rd party cover from their own policy of course.

Miscalibration is a complete no-hoper. The court will be the local one to the place it occured - but you may well not need to go unless you plead NG and that would be an expensive day out!! Unless you're facing a ban or totting disqual you'll most likely get a SJPN which doesn't require atendance.

The court decides the punishment (within the Mags guidelines) you don't get to cherry pick!! Inscos vary on what loads the premium but they won't like a ban much more/less than 5-6 points, but run a dummy quote on a comparison site if you want an indication.
NewJudge
QUOTE (beerfan @ Fri, 21 May 2021 - 13:35) *
There's just the 1 driver registered to ride the motorcycle, would this still work? It's just an excuse to see their evidence right? How would I go about asking for the evidence? Is that with a cover letter when responding to the NIP?

Do not ask for "evidence". As mentioned, you are not entitled to any at present and there have been stories of people doing so and the police interpreting that as they are going to dispute the matter. Simply ask for "photographs to help identify the driver." You must do this before you respond providing the driver's details (for obvious reasons) but your request does not extend the 28 days you have in which to reply.

QUOTE (beerfan @ Fri, 21 May 2021 - 13:35) *
For what it's worth, I hit the brakes down to 30 as soon as I saw the police van. Could this make their case harder?

You were probably zapped before you saw the van.

QUOTE (beerfan @ Fri, 21 May 2021 - 13:35) *
Also it was one of those 30 mph rural villages, no pavement and streetlighting if I recall correctly (may be wrong) -

Do you believe the limit was not adequately signed?

Whether you are disqualified or have points imposed, you will have to declare the conviction and endorsement to insurers for five years anyway. Points are only a method of imposing an additional punishment to those who commit a string of less serious offences. Some insurers may treat an offence for which you were banned as more serious than one for which points were imposed (as indeed it usually is). This offence is almost certain to result in six points and you do not get to choose.
Jlc
QUOTE (beerfan @ Fri, 21 May 2021 - 13:35) *
Would it be possible to choose the temporary driving suspension (or do they call it disqualification?) rather than the points on the license? I don't need to drive to work so the suspension is not a huge issue. If I got the suspension instead of points would that make it so that this speeding incident will not affect future insurance premiums?

You don't get to choose but you can influence the bench.

That excess though is almost certainly going to be 6 points - you probably need to have been going a bit quicker for a short ban.

Bans are likely to load your premium more than 6 points tbh - but as noted it can depend. Check your policy, they usually need notification at renewal.
The Rookie
QUOTE (beerfan @ Fri, 21 May 2021 - 13:35) *
There's just the 1 driver registered to ride the motorcycle,

I’m not sure who you think keeps a register of riders, but I can assure you there isn’t one.

If you mean only one insured to, well that’s obviously not true as anyone with a ride another bike extension on their insurance can.

Location with repeater.
https://goo.gl/maps/Cqs3GfuRUu95MSbS9
beerfan
Should I be asking for photographs / video via email or writing a physical letter?
Who should I be requesting the information from?
Should I provide my email in the letter?
Also I saw other post of people asking for certificate of calibration, good idea?

Maybe this address? (Same one that came on the NIP)

Camera Ticket Office
PO Box 25
Droitwich
WR9 8UF

https://www.westmercia.police.uk/advice/adv...eeding-tickets/

Thanks for you help guys!
The Rookie
Write to the address on the NIP as you say.

I wouldn't supply an email address no.

No-one on here will suggest asking for a calibration certificate, you have no basis for asking for it (and it may well cause them to decide not to send any photo) and even if the device is out of calibration (very unlikely) it doesn't help you anyway.
beerfan
UPDATE: I have received the (somewhat amusing) evidence.

Please let me know if it's normal to start a new thread for updates on this forum.

I can find exactly where the location was on google maps if anyone is interested.
I would be grateful for any advice - bang to rights I guess. Thanks!
southpaw82
QUOTE (beerfan @ Sat, 5 Jun 2021 - 20:51) *
Please let me know if it's normal to start a new thread for updates on this forum.

No, in fact the opposite - there is a “one case, one thread” rule.
andy_foster
QUOTE (beerfan @ Sat, 5 Jun 2021 - 20:51) *
Please let me know if it's normal to start a new thread for updates on this forum.


Rule #1 - 1 case 1 thread

QUOTE
I can find exactly where the location was on google maps if anyone is interested.
I would be grateful for any advice - bang to rights I guess. Thanks!


The 'speed camera' was a Lastec LTi2020 with Concept DVD system recording the session. The time and frame number overlaid is live, but the speed and distance are calculated and displayed slightly afterwards.

There are numerous ways that such a device could potentially give an incorrect reading - most likely being 'slip' where the beam pans along the side of the vehicle, or the reading being from another vehicle close behind. The image does not suggest that either of those are particularly likely in this case.

Pretty much the only thing that you can possibly check from the image is that the distance is consistent with the positions of the bike and the device. AIUI the distance is the average (or midpoint) distance measured during the ping which takes (IIRC) 0.328 seconds (unless it failed to get a good reading and tried again). The speed and distance are then overlaid for a few frames and then a timeout symbol (3 or 4 squares) displayed next to it.

TL;DR the distance displayed ought to be from a point about 4 metres behind the front of your bike in the image to the device (the back of the camera van). If that distance is substantially different to the distance displayed on the image, that would seem to suggest an issue with the reading. If not, then unless you have the money for a very expensive fishing trip, I would suggest taking it on the chin.
beerfan
I think motorbike location was right here:
https://goo.gl/maps/fvZyPrPZdJ1Vy7WbA

Police van location was here:
https://goo.gl/maps/iDAqGwN9Qs3c7tZV8

Streetview:
https://i.imgur.com/LvpcEe2.jpg

Distance looks about right
sad.gif
beerfan
I just noticed that today is the last day of the 28 day response deadline. Do you think it would be okay to post it now? Maybe I could drive drop my response off personally?
cp8759
QUOTE (beerfan @ Mon, 14 Jun 2021 - 10:59) *
I just noticed that today is the last day of the 28 day response deadline. Do you think it would be okay to post it now? Maybe I could drive drop my response off personally?

If you post it today it'll be fine, they're not going to prosecute you for your reply being 1 day late. You can't go round in person as the address is a PO BOX, though I suppose you could locate the relevant Royal Mail delivery office, ask for the physical address that matches the PO BOX, and then go there. But given the price of a 1st class stamp it hardly seems worth the effort.
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