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deli333
Hi guys,

Firstly, I am aware that there are many topics relating to this matter and I have read many of them. I would like to share my details and ask your opinion.


First of all, I got a NIP in 20 November 2020, for exceeding 40mph average limit with 55mph. My friend was driving and he accepted the fixed penalty, this ticket was processed.

After 6 months, I got a letter saying that I failed to give driver information. At first I thought this is the same ticket but somehow lost but then I realised there is another speeding charge, same road, same time but 21 November 2020. I did not get this ticket for sure.

Btw I moved from that home to the next flat around January 2021.

I would like to please not guilty to both offences and I have some evidences to show the court.


1- I have emails from 4 different companies ( fedex, royal mail, parcelforce, UPS ) about my missing letters and shipments. I had a long conversation with Fedex in December 2020 saying that "I should have received a customs bill" but i did not get any letter. Having had this conversation fedex sent my bill via email and I paid. I also had a long email conversation with Parcelforce asking "How can not you find my address" etc. They said there was a problem with my delivery address ( the address that is exactly the same as my supposedly sent NIP ticket) I have similiar emails and phone calls in that address regarding to lost/undelivered items and posts.

2- For some reason my SJPN letter was opened someone else and it is posted to my mailbox around 16:30. I asked my neighboors and all said we did not get anything or open anything on your name.

3- In addition to the emails, I had so many phone calls regarding to the deliveries (either post or shipment) at thiss address. Which proofs should I include?

4- I got another ticket, for an offence happened just a day before. As I replied that one promtply, why would I not reply the other one if I get it?


I was wondering is there any chance I can get away with no fine? or no points to my driving license?

What should I do or say when I go to court? Should I hire a solicitor?
The Rookie
If you can convince the court that the NIP wasn’t served (delivered) then you should not be convicted.

Do the complaints pre-date the offence or come after it?

Communications with courier companies don’t help, just Royal Mail.

Is the SJPN just for failing to furnish or for the speeding as well? Due to the risks involved if you are dual charged we usually recommend the plea deal to the underlying speeding event in exchange for the failing to furnish being dropped.
Gerfc1
What happened to the other Speeding Charge?
deli333
QUOTE (Gerfc1 @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 12:22) *
What happened to the other Speeding Charge?


it is sent and processed. my friend was driving.
deli333
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 07:34) *
If you can convince the court that the NIP wasn’t served (delivered) then you should not be convicted.

Do the complaints pre-date the offence or come after it?

Communications with courier companies don’t help, just Royal Mail.

Is the SJPN just for failing to furnish or for the speeding as well? Due to the risks involved if you are dual charged we usually recommend the plea deal to the underlying speeding event in exchange for the failing to furnish being dropped.


I have one with royal mail, one with parcelforce.
royal mail one after the offence. i asked fedex ( royal mail delivers fedex letters) that can you send me my customs bills, i should have got one but i didnt receive it.

the parcelforce one just before the offence. they sad they have an issue with my address and could not find. i then sent a harsh email saying that how can not you find an address in 2020.

sjpn is for both failing and speeding. but to be honest i dont want to get any fine as i strongly believe i am not guilty, especially points. i dont mind about money fine. i have business insurance and having tickets will have a big impact. also i have my license only for 19 months.

so as proof i have
1- royal mail, parcelforce and other shipment companies had delivery problems
2- i had another ticket just a day before, i sent it and it processed. surely i am checking my mails regularly. because the time my friend was driving he was also stopped police and he was driving lile an idiot. i was checking my mails in detail in case i get another ticket etc.
3-i have a proof that letter is opened by someone else and sent through my postbox- i dont know does this help.

well i really need to avoid any points or ban in my license.

I also genineuly believe this is not fair, just because of this stupid area i should not be punished. Recently, i decided to move mainly because of parcel delivery problems. because i had alot of problems here.

I appreciate your help guys, thank you

TMC Towcester
Are you claiming you're NG of speeding as well??!!

The Royal Mail complaint was after the offence?

I don't understand the relevance of the envelope being opened vs guilt or innocence?
The Rookie
The points and fine go together, you are either not guilty and get neither or plead/found guilty and get both.

The previous NIP is of little help, you had nothing to gain on that one but you do on this one.

What proof do you have the SJPN was delivered opened?

It can be argued that you ‘created’ the delivery problems after the NIP.

You need to consider carefully how you would combat this.
deli333
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 15:18) *
The points and fine go together, you are either not guilty and get neither or plead/found guilty and get both.

The previous NIP is of little help, you had nothing to gain on that one but you do on this one.

What proof do you have the SJPN was delivered opened?

It can be argued that you ‘created’ the delivery problems after the NIP.

You need to consider carefully how you would combat this.


because someone tried to re apply some glue

delivery problems both before, during and after nip. i really had huge problems in this area. i actually asked fedex and ups blacklist me.
previous nip was just a day before, 1 minute before and almost same speed, same road.

yes i am claiming not guilty of speed as well because i am sure i didnt get that letter. I am someone who checks the post in the morning before even going to toilet. if i had the ticket i could have taken awareness course and wouldnt mind at all. I mean why would i reply to the nip i grt a day before and dont reply the other one?

btw this is one of the emails with fedex, that should have been delivered by royal mail.

TMC Towcester
QUOTE (deli333 @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:02) *
yes i am claiming not guilty of speed as well because i am sure i didnt get that letter.


You have absolutely zero chance of a defence on that basis! You will be asked under otath potentially and lying would not be prudent.
deli333
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:19) *
QUOTE (deli333 @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:02) *
yes i am claiming not guilty of speed as well because i am sure i didnt get that letter.


You have absolutely zero chance of a defence on that basis! You will be asked under otath potentially and lying would not be prudent.


I will try my best at that basis, if I can get away with awareness course or anything similiar.
Like i have said i dont feel this is fair. I am not lying or making it up.
I believe we shouldnt accept smaller fines just to avoid bigger ones if we are living a civilized modern country .

for example the reason i contacted fedex i knew that there has to be a customs charge, i felt that i have to pay it or it will come and find me. i chase fedex for 10 days to pay my customs. I feel I am a honest person and to me it doesnt feel right.

I also know many people here got fined even though they are not completely guilty. At some point we need to fight with this and improve as much as possible.

Thanks
TMC Towcester
QUOTE (deli333 @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:30) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:19) *
QUOTE (deli333 @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:02) *
yes i am claiming not guilty of speed as well because i am sure i didnt get that letter.


You have absolutely zero chance of a defence on that basis! You will be asked under otath potentially and lying would not be prudent.


I will try my best at that basis, if I can get away with awareness course or anything similiar.
Like i have said i dont feel this is fair. I am not lying or making it up.
I believe we shouldnt accept smaller fines just to avoid bigger ones if we are living a civilized modern country .

for example the reason i contacted fedex i knew that there has to be a customs charge, i felt that i have to pay it or it will come and find me. i chase fedex for 10 days to pay my customs. I feel I am a honest person and to me it doesnt feel right.

I also know many people here got fined even though they are not completely guilty. At some point we need to fight with this and improve as much as possible.

Thanks


You're missing the point - IF you were driving at the time/date and the speed was properly signed and detected, not getting a letter doesn't make you NG of speeding. You may be able to defend the F2F, but even that isn't the strongest, but if you were speeding, you're guilty!

I 'get' the indignity but that doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to obey the road traffic laws - no court in the land will se it differently.
southpaw82
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:19) *
QUOTE (deli333 @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:02) *
yes i am claiming not guilty of speed as well because i am sure i didnt get that letter.


You have absolutely zero chance of a defence on that basis! You will be asked under otath potentially and lying would not be prudent.

Where are you going with this?

QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:32) *
You're missing the point - IF you were driving at the time/date and the speed was properly signed and detected, not getting a letter doesn't make you NG of speeding. You may be able to defend the F2F, but even that isn't the strongest, but if you were speeding, you're guilty!

Are you familiar with section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988?
TMC Towcester
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:34) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:19) *
QUOTE (deli333 @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:02) *
yes i am claiming not guilty of speed as well because i am sure i didnt get that letter.


You have absolutely zero chance of a defence on that basis! You will be asked under otath potentially and lying would not be prudent.

Where are you going with this?




Trying to stop (or at least guide) the OP away from a lost cause.
southpaw82
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:44) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:34) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:19) *
QUOTE (deli333 @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:02) *
yes i am claiming not guilty of speed as well because i am sure i didnt get that letter.


You have absolutely zero chance of a defence on that basis! You will be asked under otath potentially and lying would not be prudent.

Where are you going with this?




Trying to stop (or at least guide) the OP away from a lost cause.

What lost cause is that?
The Rookie
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:44) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:34) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:19) *
QUOTE (deli333 @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 18:02) *
yes i am claiming not guilty of speed as well because i am sure i didnt get that letter.

You have absolutely zero chance of a defence on that basis! You will be asked under oath potentially and lying would not be prudent.

Where are you going with this?

Trying to stop (or at least guide) the OP away from a lost cause.

Better tell Peter Gidden he was convicted after all then.....
https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/2924.html

I'm confused as to where you think the OP is lying as well?
Gerfc1
You have no chance of getting a Speed Awareness Course in this case.


Your best bet is to reply to the SJPN and plea Guilty to both charge, Speeding and Failure to identify driver.

Then Attend course and ask to speak to the proescutor that you are willing to Plea Guilty to Speeding as long the Failure to identify driver is dropped. Only speak to proescutor or the magistrate.

Then you can ask the magistrate to sentence you at the Fixed Penalty of £100 an 3 penalty points (as long your speed is in the Fixed Penalty range)
NewJudge
QUOTE (Gerfc1 @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 21:54) *
Your best bet is to reply to the SJPN and plea Guilty to both charge, Speeding and Failure to identify driver.

I hope you mean NOT guilty.

This seems to ignore the consideration of pleading Not Guilty to speeding on the basis that no NIP was served.
deli333
guys i think you miss the point.
just because people have power to proceed some legal action, should we accept whatever they say?
I got a nip for an offence committed a day before and it was replied properly.
I got emails and proof about the delivery exemptions in that area for the last two years.
I have every proof that this are has delivery problems.

what I am trying to say I have proof and supportive actions, documents.

If i did not have any proof I would gladly want to accept 3 points and 100£ fine. But i have proof, if I am not going to defend my rights now, when i am going to defend it?
The Rookie
You have evidence, if the court accepts it then it is proof (for the relevant purposes to the relevant standard), if it doesn’t then it’s not (obviously).

The glue on an envelope is evidence, as you could have put it there yourself it’s NOT proof, you have nothing that proves the NIP wasn’t delivered (proving a negative is pretty hard so that's not unusual) the pragmatic approach is to do the plea deal, but if you want to fight it, then that’s great, but be aware the courts are cynical otherwise everyone would turn up and claim the NIP wasn’t delivered. If you lose you risk 6 points (instead of 3) and a fine and costs leaving little change from around £1000 (depending on your income*) compared to a likely £100-200.

6 points would see your licence revoked and you then having to pay for all the retests and also any refresher lessons.

*Fine will be 150% of your weekly take home pay (less tax and NI only) plus a court surcharge of 10% (£34 minimum) and costs of at least £620 (though as this is not a complex case I'd expect for them to ask for that minimum).
douglasb
Your simplest option is (as has been said) to plead not guilty to both charges and go to court offering to plead guity to speeding if the Failing to Furnish charge is dropped. This deal can only be done at court and on the day. You will end up with 3 points and a fine - which as has also been said you can ask to be limited to £100 because you couldn't reply to the original request for reasons outside your control.

Pretty much any other course of action will run the risk of landing you with at least 6 points. As you mentioned that you have only had your licence for 19 months six points would see your licence revoked and you having to sit your driving test again. This happens if you accumulate six points in your first 24 months of driving. Three points is very unlikely to make much difference (if any difference at all) to your insurance.
Gerfc1
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 22:02) *
QUOTE (Gerfc1 @ Sun, 23 May 2021 - 21:54) *
Your best bet is to reply to the SJPN and plea Guilty to both charge, Speeding and Failure to identify driver.

I hope you mean NOT guilty.

This seems to ignore the consideration of pleading Not Guilty to speeding on the basis that no NIP was served.


Oops... I know I should have said "Not Guilty", I am not sure why I did not type "Not" - Thanks for pointing it out.
Gerfc1
Just reading it again.

You can write to the CPS to see what date they served the NIP to registered keeper. CPS may refuse to disclosure it until the trial.


There is no time limit in requesting to identify the driver under Section 172. Failure to identify driver charge may be valid.


Please ignore all different delivery companies. Fedex, UPS, etc would not work.


The paperworks by police and CPS will use Royal Mail only. You can contact them to show evidence of delivery problems in your area.
deli333
So as far as I understand even though i have some evidences it is difficult to convince the court.
Therefore safe bet is plea deal.
How should i approach this, should i firstly show my evidences and tell i am ready to accept speeding fine according to the mood of the judge?( i mean in case judge sounds like he/she is about to drop both charges)


QUOTE (Gerfc1 @ Mon, 24 May 2021 - 12:12) *
Just reading it again.

You can write to the CPS to see what date they served the NIP to registered keeper. CPS may refuse to disclosure it until the trial.


There is no time limit in requesting to identify the driver under Section 172. Failure to identify driver charge may be valid.


Please ignore all different delivery companies. Fedex, UPS, etc would not work.


The paperworks by police and CPS will use Royal Mail only. You can contact them to show evidence of delivery problems in your area.


I can probably get a letter from the Royal Mail in that area. Would this help?


The Rookie
Just read post #16
NO don't try and prove your innocence, getting smart is the best way for them to decline the deal.

It will usually be a bench of three magistrates, mood doesn't come into it.
NewJudge
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 25 May 2021 - 13:21) *
Just read post #16

Unless, of course, you are going to defend the matter on the basis that no NIP was properly served (and you'd have to defend the s172 matter on the same basis - i.e. that the request for driver's details was also not properly served).

If you do intend to follow post #16 you should note the small but very important amendment in post #17.

Whether or not to drop any of the charges is not within the gift of the judge (or, as Rookie points out, the Magistrates). The prosecutor decides which charges to bring and which to continue with so it is she or he whom you must agree the "deal" with.
The Rookie
QUOTE (deli333 @ Tue, 25 May 2021 - 13:19) *
Therefore safe bet is plea deal.
How should i approach this, should i firstly show my evidences and tell i am ready to accept speeding fine according to the mood of the judge?

Erm. this is what I was replying to....
deli333
guys update,

I have a court date next week, however I got a letter from speed unit saying that they discontinue the case after further review and they will let the court about their decision. (Thanks god as I believe this was not just )

do I still need to go court?
andy_foster
QUOTE (deli333 @ Thu, 26 Aug 2021 - 18:57) *
do I still need to go court?


No.
notmeatloaf
I wonder if they made a clerical error, it would be unlucky to have two speeding tickets in two days.

Good result though.
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