Hi,

My son was caught on a TFL bus in 2018 without his zip card/Oyster (he was around 13 at the time). He got a fine and I challenged it in writing backwards and forwards. All went quiet for around 30 months.

Today I get a letter from IRCAS addressed to "Parent or Guardian of Mr ---- " (they don't have my or my son's first name), that if I don't pay the fill £80 within 14 days they will begin legal action.

Do I have to take notice?

Unless he was driving, I doubt this is a speeding or criminal offence?

ps. They're a collections agency, nothing more. So, until you get an LBA (assuming this isn't entitled thus) or County Court claim, there's no action to take.

Can you explain the basis of the challenge? He either had it (no case) or he didn't??!!

This is criminal case which it must be brought to Court within 6 months otherwise it is time-barred.

Can a money claim in court be against "Parent or Guardian of Mr ---- " (they don't have my or my son's first name, they only have surname's)?

Does it definitely say prosecution? Or legal action (title says one, text the other).

While according to TFL unpaid fairs can result in a criminal prosecution, it would seem strange, if not perverse, that someone other than the supposed perpetrator was facing a criminal prosecution.

He certainly didn’t get a fine at the time, but may have been issued a penalty fare

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/penalty...how-to-pay-them

Accuracy matters......

Please see a copy of the letter dated -- May '21 attached.

Indeed that is for a penalty fare

I wonder what they intend prosecuting you as "Parent or Guardian" for?

I suspect they may be able to go after the adult who applied for the card

However its way beyond the 6 month period to prosecute (assume Ng this applies to a penalty fare)

A Penalty Fare can be recovered as a civil debt, rather than needing to be prosecuted. (it even says 'a court order requiring payment').

I have no idea how they can recover from the parents, unless they are just trying to apply some pressure.

Yes, but recovery of a civil debt is not a prosecution, which is what is threatened at the top of the letter.

It appears that their policy is:

A Penalty Fare Notice is issued when a passenger travelling on a TfL service fails to produce on
demand a valid travel mandate when required to do so by an authorised person.
Penalty Fare Notices are issued in lieu of taking criminal prosecution following fare evasion in
circumstances where the offender is considered not to have deliberately set out to avoid the fare due.

See LINK

It doesn’t ACTUALLY say they will prosecute/take court action against the parent or guardian, it implies it but the wording doesn’t actually say it anywhere, in fact to me it seems carefully written to make it sound like it is while not actually doing it.

Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 regulations mean the penalty fare can be pursued as a civil debt in certain circumstances.

Very likely it is just a debt collector chancing their arm with a barely literate letter. They can't pursue him when under 18, only court bailiffs can. Theoretically they could get a crown court order to pursue the debt against a child in certain circumstances but that seems unlikely for £80.

They can't pursue him when he is 18 for a debt incurred when he is under 18.

Personally I would write back to them saying the debt was not incurred by you. The letter breaches GDPR as there is no contract with you, and so the letter cannot be necessary for the performances of an alleged contract with a third party.

Any further communication other than confirmation the case is being discontinued will be used as evidence in a complaint to the ICO.

I'm not a GDPR expert so am prepared to be proved wrong on this, but the scanned letter is addressed to "The Parent or Guardian" and not to a named individual. The debt collectors may have just chanced their arms on a parent living at the address that they have for ths son (pretty likely for an under 18 year old).

Presumably there is a covering letter as well. If the letter isn't addressed to a named individual but just to "Parent or Guardian" is that a breach of GDPR as no identifiable personal details are on the letter?

If the penalty fare is "in lieu of" prosecution, doesn't that give the recipient to choose to ignore the penalty fare and chance their arm in court. In this case, oops, too late.

I would also add that the letter is a serious misrepresentation of the truth when they title it Notice of Intended Prosecution, as there is no chance of that happening. Maybe they can be embarrassed into dropping it.

Have a read of the regs, they are recoverable in a manner akin to PCNs.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/36...ulation/12/made

The link you've provided relates to railway passengers, this thread is about a bus passenger.

Children are still covered by GDPR. In this case there are personal details about the child.

It is permissible to send information to a parent about a child if there is a legitimate reason for sharing such information. However, just trying to get around the rules on collecting debt from children.

Essentially, would you be happy if a debt collector wrote to your Mum about a debt you have threatening to prosecute [sic]?

Which rules are you referring to?

So back to rationality, the PCN provisions would appear to be contained in schedule 17 paragraph 3 of the Greater London Authority Act 1999 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1999/29/schedule/17

That schedule provides at paragraph 8(2) that a criminal prosecution under section 25(3) of the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981 if "an action has been brought against the person who has become liable to pay the penalty fare for the recovery of that fare", which indicates that a civil action can be brought. I don't see however how liability can be transferred from a child to a parent or guardian without explicit statutory provisions to that effect. So in a nutshell they can sue the kid.

Any criminal prosecution will long since have become time-barred.