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KirDrive
Hello,

I'm looking for a bit of advice please as I'm terrified and confused.

I currently have a pending court date for 81mph in a 50mph back in October 2020. I was driving home from work at 22:31 and followed by a marked police car that I did not notice was marked due to my active tinting on my rear view mirror obscuring this, and who took multiple average speeds of 90+ in a 70, but stopped me for 81mph after it went down to 50mph. I chose to plead guilty in court rather than accept a SJPN as I thought at the time it would allow me to plead for more leniency. That court date is set for 25/06.

However, today I received through my door a NIP for 63mph in a 50mph on 24/05 at 16:14.

I currently have 3 points from December 2019.

As such, if I receive the points for all these offences I will be due for a totting up ban and that is what I did not initially consider and am now sick in my stomach since I passed the speed camera van on 24/05.

For what it's worth, I understand my own idiocy and stupidity in speeding, especially with a pending court date, and am also kicking myself because overall I have seriously slowed down since being caught in October but still messed up.

Considering these factors and especially the timing though, I am unsure how to proceed and what would be the best course of action and have so many questions.

Both of these recent offences are from Surrey Police, and 63mph in a 50mph would possibly make me eligible for a SAC as I have never done one before, am within the supposed speed guidelines, and have currently only 3 points. However, if this is processed after my court date and possible 6 points, perhaps they will not offer me this on 9 points instead?

However, similarly, if I return this NIP asap, and have it processed for a FPN, will the court then be aware of a pending FPN for 3 points and in no way look to potentially offer me a short ban instead of points?

Thinking of the court date, I suppose now my best course of action is to be apologetic and admit that I was wrong, and while understanding that it is in no way my right to request any choice of punishment, plead for a short ban instead of points? But how would the best way to go about this be, and will the court know that I have another speeding offence pending?

I'm very confused and very scared, and really uncertain about how all the timings of this affect each case, any help would be greatly greatly appreciated.
nosferatu1001
My understanding is that a course offer isn't dependent on points, so you should still get one.
666
Unless I've missed someting, you will be offered a course for the latest offence.
KirDrive
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 10:52) *
My understanding is that a course offer isn't dependent on points, so you should still get one.


I have seen posted elsewhere colloquially that people say they have been offered a SAC on 9 points, but others saying that some police forces strictly do not offer a SAC if an offender is on 9+ points. But again, it comes into play perhaps the timing of when processed etc., how many points I have at the time before/after court date.
TMC Towcester
The only sure way to find out is return the NIP. If you do so quickly, the authorities will have no advance record of the 25th June sentence anyway!!

From readings on here, I don't recall anyone being refused the SAC (if eligible) based on the number of points - it's based only on the last time one was undertaken (plus speed/limit of course).

The Rookie
QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 10:59) *
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 10:52) *
My understanding is that a course offer isn't dependent on points, so you should still get one.

I have seen posted elsewhere colloquially that people say they have been offered a SAC on 9 points, but others saying that some police forces strictly do not offer a SAC if an offender is on 9+ points.

The national guidelines are clear and existing points aren't a factor. The forces get a cut from the course fee and quite like to maximise that.

People on 9+points may not have been offered a course for a variety of reasons and assumed it was due to the points, miscalculated the speed to which courses are offered, time elapsed since date of offence, previous courses taken and the relative offence dates. The Police don't, and usually won't, explain why a course isn't offered.
KirDrive
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 11:31) *
QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 10:59) *
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 10:52) *
My understanding is that a course offer isn't dependent on points, so you should still get one.

I have seen posted elsewhere colloquially that people say they have been offered a SAC on 9 points, but others saying that some police forces strictly do not offer a SAC if an offender is on 9+ points.

The national guidelines are clear and existing points aren't a factor. The forces get a cut from the course fee and quite like to maximise that.

People on 9+points may not have been offered a course for a variety of reasons and assumed it was due to the points, miscalculated the speed to which courses are offered, time elapsed since date of offence, previous courses taken and the relative offence dates. The Police don't, and usually won't, explain why a course isn't offered.


Thank you.

I am in two minds then, whether it is perhaps better to send the NIP back ASAP, or leave it for as long as reasonably possible (while still ensuring it is received within 28 days of course). I understand I am perhaps sounding like I am trying to "game" it all a bit, but I just am wondering what might give me the best chance of a preferred outcome.

I guess it hinges on how a pending FPN will affect the court proceedings. I have 28 days again to respond to a FPN in any case so I will never have to do this before my court date on 25/06, but will the court be aware of a FPN being issued if I respond to this NIP asap? Will that then affect the outcome of the court proceedings?

What I do not want to do especially is reply to the NIP, be issued a FPN before the court date of which worst case scenario, I do not receive a SAC offer. Then go to court knowing I want to aim for a short ban rather than 6 points, but argue this for another reason whilst the court can see that transparently I want a short ban to avoid a potential totting up ban if I receive 6 points followed by 3 points.

Surely the court would be far more unlikely to consider a short ban in my case if they can see I would potentially be facing a totting up ban in the near future?

I may be overthinking all of this, but I want to make sure I make no further missteps.
The Rookie
I see no benefit in not replying fairly promptly, in fact I see benefits.
1/ Reply now and you'll know by the court date what you are being offered by the Police AND they will only see three points when they make the offer (if you still think 9 is an issue)
2/ Even if you reply now the 28 days to accept a Conditional offer of a Fixed Penalty (not an FPN although similar) will not expire until after your court date anyway.
3/ No the court will not be aware of the new case at all, regardless of what is offered

The court have specific guidance NOT to sentence with a short ban in order to avoid totting, so no, it doesn't work that way at all, in fact the exact opposite.
southpaw82
I don’t see how the court (or the prosecutor) would be aware of any impending FPN.
TMC Towcester
I'm not sure I understand the dilemma here!

If you mess about, the SAC offer won't come through. I see zero advantage in delaying (other than cash-flow) and thereby risking the court case and sentencing coming first and thus opening the door to NOT getting the SAC??
KirDrive
Thanks all, yes I do agree with all of your advice now that replying asap is the best course of action, I just wanted to be sure.

Now administratively, I am further worried about not providing the exact correct details for them to offer me a SAC. There seems to be lots of indirect warnings about not being offered a SAC due to incorrect details being offered, however as long as I fill out "Part 1" to nominate myself as the driver, providing my full driving licence number, and fill out the bottom of the NIP to say that the statement I provided is true, complete with my contact number and email, surely I should be fine in that regard.

Frustratingly, I only have my FPN from my 3 points in 2019, as I think I sent the whole NIP back with my details at the time. As such, I cannot see exactly what speed I was doing in a 50mph to have not been offered a SAC at the time. I had remembered that it was a 61mph in a 50mph, but was my first offence in the UK (Passed test in Republic of Ireland in 2015, moved back to UK in 02/17 and issued full UK licence 02/18, British citizen born in UK). Thus I am confused and worried about receiving a SAC offer this time around.

Seems like the guidelines certainly state I should however.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 11:51) *
The court have specific guidance NOT to sentence with a short ban in order to avoid totting, so no, it doesn't work that way at all, in fact the exact opposite.


Sorry, that was what I meant, and why I would be keen to avoid having a further pending three points when going to court if they were to be aware of that, and for them to then lean towards issuing 6 points to constitute a potential totting up ban.

If I am not offered a SAC for this most recent offence, I will have to plead for a short ban rather than points in court.
TMC Towcester
We can't see it and they're not all exactly the same so can't really say for sure!

So, read it carefully and follow the instructions to the letter!
The Rookie
QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 12:08) *
If I am not offered a SAC for this most recent offence, I will have to plead for a short ban rather than points in court.

Which would be an utter waste of time as noted above but even more so for a low level offence!

What you can plead is exceptional hardship.

Or to get a ban instead of points for the upcoming court case, just turn up and behave like a absolute ccck typical chav.

QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 12:08) *
Frustratingly, I only have my FPN from my 3 points in 2019

3 points from your CoFP.....
KirDrive
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 13:53) *
QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 12:08) *
If I am not offered a SAC for this most recent offence, I will have to plead for a short ban rather than points in court.

Which would be an utter waste of time as noted above but even more so for a low level offence!

What you can plead is exceptional hardship.

Or to get a ban instead of points for the upcoming court case, just turn up and behave like a absolute ccck typical chav.

QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 12:08) *
Frustratingly, I only have my FPN from my 3 points in 2019

3 points from your CoFP.....


Yeah, I mean that I will have to plead for a short ban during the upcoming court case of 81mph in a 50mph so that I can then accept 3 points later on from the other. And yes, that's exactly my problem with how to go about that if that's the case. I don't think I'm gonna carefully craft an image of a complete d-head and hope that works, but then surely being polite and accepting guilt and being apologetic and still asking for a short ban on perhaps the basis of I've learnt my lesson and don't want the stain of 9 points, if possible would rather a short ban to feel first hand the consequences of being unable to drive and hopefully that will put discipline in me... But by the sounds of the guidelines, I can imagine eyebrows would be raised and they would wave this away and give me the "lesser" punishment of 6 points regardless. Hmmmm.
NewJudge
I think you are worrying unnecessarily. You will almost certainly be awarded six points at your court appearance and you will almost certainly be offered a course for the latest offence.

QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 12:08) *
If I am not offered a SAC for this most recent offence, I will have to plead for a short ban rather than points in court.

The above is a complete non-starter. As mentioned by Rookie, Magistrates have specific guidance suggesting they should not do that. A quote from the Magistrates' "Bench Book":

In some cases in which the court is considering discretionary disqualification, the offender may already have sufficient penalty points on his or her licence that he or she would be liable to a ‘totting up’ disqualification if further points were imposed. In these circumstances, the court should impose penalty points rather than discretionary disqualification so that the minimum totting up disqualification period applies

If you do, by some remote chance, find yourself with twelve points the only option with a realistic chance of success is for you to argue that "Exceptional Hardship" will be suffered by you and/or others if you are banned.
KirDrive
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 14:12) *
The above is a complete non-starter. As mentioned by Rookie, Magistrates have specific guidance suggesting they should not do that. A quote from the Magistrates' "Bench Book":

In some cases in which the court is considering discretionary disqualification, the offender may already have sufficient penalty points on his or her licence that he or she would be liable to a ‘totting up’ disqualification if further points were imposed. In these circumstances, the court should impose penalty points rather than discretionary disqualification so that the minimum totting up disqualification period applies

If you do, by some remote chance, find yourself with twelve points the only option with a realistic chance of success is for you to argue that "Exceptional Hardship" will be suffered by you and/or others if you are banned.


I meant that I would have to plead for a short ban in the upcoming court case that would impose either 6 points or a short ban, and bring me up to 9 points, before having to face a subsequent court date for the more recent offence in which I will be facing 3 points and a totting up ban of which I understand I will not have the realistic chance of a short ban >56 days.

As you said though, it seems unlikely that I could even argue for a short ban for the 81mph in a 50mph as they are much more likely to impose six points no matter what I say.
NewJudge
Yes I understand that. So if asked (as I'm sure you would be) what will be your reason for seeking a short ban instead of six points? Bear in mind that the Magistrates will have in mind that the purpose of the "totting up" scheme is to impose additional punishment on drivers who commit a string of minor offences.
KirDrive
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 15:37) *
Yes I understand that. So if asked (as I'm sure you would be) what will be your reason for seeking a short ban instead of six points? Bear in mind that the Magistrates will have in mind that the purpose of the "totting up" scheme is to impose additional punishment on drivers who commit a string of minor offences.


This would perhaps be my next question; what would constitute a short ban instead of points? Under what circumstances would the court impose a short ban rather than points in a scenario of 81mph in a 50mph?

Perhaps agitating circumstances are that I was followed by a marked police car and failed to slow down, also perhaps displaying that I failed to notice.


As of my court date I will only have 3 points, I suppose totting up won't come in to play then, however I can imagine the court would think that having me on 9 points should dissuade me from speeding again and as such that would be preferable.

I was literally thinking of just being human, polite, and admitting my mistake and guilt, but also displaying that I would prefer a short ban if I could, perhaps to see what the real life consequences of such would be on my day-to-day life so as to dissuade me from speeding in the future and risking further bans. I don't know how that would go or look though.
TMC Towcester
Maybe do a dummy run on your insurance first! It does seem to vary and whilst both 9 pts and a ban are impactful on premia, one may be even more impactful, so worth checking first anyway.
NewJudge
QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 16:12) *
This would perhaps be my next question; what would constitute a short ban instead of points? Under what circumstances would the court impose a short ban rather than points in a scenario of 81mph in a 50mph?


A short as, perhaps, 14 days. But it is most unlikely to be imposed


QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 16:12) *
... however I can imagine the court would think that having me on 9 points should dissuade me from speeding again and as such that would be preferable.

That is precisely what they would think and that is precisely why six points is far more likely.

I think you need to plan on the basis that you will emerge from this with nine points and your "joker" of a speed awareness course burnt up. That means a very careful right foot until December 2022.
KirDrive
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 16:57) *
QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 16:12) *
This would perhaps be my next question; what would constitute a short ban instead of points? Under what circumstances would the court impose a short ban rather than points in a scenario of 81mph in a 50mph?


A short as, perhaps, 14 days. But it is most unlikely to be imposed


QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 16:12) *
... however I can imagine the court would think that having me on 9 points should dissuade me from speeding again and as such that would be preferable.

That is precisely what they would think and that is precisely why six points is far more likely.

I think you need to plan on the basis that you will emerge from this with nine points and your "joker" of a speed awareness course burnt up. That means a very careful right foot until December 2022.


At this stage that would be a good result for me, in my head I'm planning for the worst, i.e. no offer of a SAC and potentially facing a totting up ban at a second court date. I've already started with my careful right foot and a lot of cruise control, a bit late now, and hopefully I won't be tempted to discontinue should I "get away" with nine points.
notmeatloaf
QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 17:11) *
hopefully I won't be tempted to discontinue should I "get away" with nine points.

Well in that case the system is designed to ban you. That is the whole idea of the points/totting ban system, people can learn - or not - from their mistakes.

Most people with nine points drive like nuns.
ricoblade
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 23:49) *
QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 17:11) *
hopefully I won't be tempted to discontinue should I "get away" with nine points.

Well in that case the system is designed to ban you. That is the whole idea of the points/totting ban system, people can learn - or not - from their mistakes.

Most people with nine points drive like nuns.


Not the nun we encountered in the early hours in Northern Ireland driving back from Donegal. A car was swerving all over the road in front us and talking corners erratically. "Drunk driver" we thought so stayed well back and were shocked when it pulled over and it was a nun driving!
KirDrive
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 4 Jun 2021 - 00:49) *
QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 17:11) *
hopefully I won't be tempted to discontinue should I "get away" with nine points.

Well in that case the system is designed to ban you. That is the whole idea of the points/totting ban system, people can learn - or not - from their mistakes.

Most people with nine points drive like nuns.


That's what I was saying, don't worry, that I won't be tempted to discontinue with my sudden good driving habits of not speeding.
666
QUOTE (ricoblade @ Fri, 4 Jun 2021 - 12:56) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 23:49) *
QUOTE (KirDrive @ Thu, 3 Jun 2021 - 17:11) *
hopefully I won't be tempted to discontinue should I "get away" with nine points.

Well in that case the system is designed to ban you. That is the whole idea of the points/totting ban system, people can learn - or not - from their mistakes.

Most people with nine points drive like nuns.


Not the nun we encountered in the early hours in Northern Ireland driving back from Donegal. A car was swerving all over the road in front us and talking corners erratically. "Drunk driver" we thought so stayed well back and were shocked when it pulled over and it was a nun driving!

"Nun" and "drunk driver" are not mutually exclusive.
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