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Telboyofpeckham
I suffer from depression & anxiety & this NIP/SJP that I just found out about is really getting to me. I'm in panic.

It seems that I just missed an NIP going directly to me & then it went all over the place.

I bought the vehicle on 13/10/202 from the owner's nephew (selling on his behalf as the uncle was elderly)

I was caught in some alleged offence on 18/10/2020

The logbook changed to me on 22/10/2020 at my work address in London. This took a long time IMHO.

The original NIP went to the the uncle at Khan's Dairy. The date of the NIP was 23/10/2020 so I don't know why they sent it to Khan's Dairy if registration changed to me on the 22nd.

He answered it but did not put my contact details on the NIP. He only put his nephew's mobile number.

Obviously the nephew did not pick up to the police so they found me through the insurance. The insurance & van were at my late father's house.

The house became tenanted but the tenants did not forward the paperwork or maybe did not get it. I literally just got this NIP when my brother was clearing the house which due to the time has changed to a Single Justice Procedure notice because I did not answer the letters.

I have no intention to avoid the NIP or the alleged offence. I'm honest & have never ever committed a criminal offence. I have a clean licence, which I'd like to keep as I need it for my work.

I lost my job in January 2020 & haven't worked since. I'm in pieces right now over this. Can anyone please help? I have no idea what to do.
TMC Towcester
It's a little hard to understand your description, and others will contribute, but here's an opening attempt!!

I assume the 22nd was the ('administrative') date you became the Registered Keeper(i.e name on the V5C)? However the date DVLA updated their records was almost certainly later, hence why an offence of 18th went to the (then) RK (from whom you bought the van).

He answered it, but we don't know what he actually put in terms of the keeper at the time (18th). He must have put more than his Nephew's number or he'll be in potential trouble for Failing to Furnish, plus how would a subsequent NIP come to you? I don't understand 'pick up to the police'? But it seems the Nephew did get an NIP and he then nominated you (correctly)?

It read as if you gave DVLA an address where you weren't living (your late Father's house)? That's a weird thing to do and looks to have created the main issue! Why did you do that? Yet you said in your opening description you registered the van at your place of work - is that your late Father's house?

Anyway, if you persue threads on here, you'll see it's 99.99% certain if you plead NG and attend you can substitute the FTF charge with the speeding charge if you seek out the prosecutor on the day.

BTW -your personal details are showing!!
NewJudge
First of all, as mentioned above, the documentation you have posted clearly shows your full name and address. You might want to take it down, blank out any personal details and those relating to the case and repost it.

You may have difficulty with the "deal" outlined in the answer above. You have not been charged with speeding and that charge is now "out of time". Court proceedings must begin within six months of the date of the alleged offence. It is not unheard of for prosecutors to raise "out of time" charges but strictly speaking it is unlawful.

Whether or not you can successfully defend the "Fail to Furnish" charge depends a bit on why you were not able to deal with post at the address where (presumably) the vehicle was registered and which the nephew stated as your address. That's not very clear from your description.
Telboyofpeckham
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Fri, 4 Jun 2021 - 15:46) *
It's a little hard to understand your description, and others will contribute, but here's an opening attempt!!

Thank you for your speedy response

I assume the 22nd was the ('administrative') date you became the Registered Keeper(i.e name on the V5C)? However the date DVLA updated their records was almost certainly later, hence why an offence of 18th went to the (then) RK (from whom you bought the van).

On GOV.UK it states that "Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 22 October 2020"

He answered it, but we don't know what he actually put in terms of the keeper at the time (18th). He must have put more than his Nephew's number or he'll be in potential trouble for Failing to Furnish, plus how would a subsequent NIP come to you? I don't understand 'pick up to the police'? But it seems the Nephew did get an NIP and he then nominated you (correctly)?

No, he just put "The vehicle was acquired/transferred on 19/09/2020 and simply a mobile phone number", no name, no address

It read as if you gave DVLA an address where you weren't living (your late Father's house)? That's a weird thing to do and looks to have created the main issue! Why did you do that? Yet you said in your opening description you registered the van at your place of work - is that your late Father's house?

Sorry, I meant that the van registration is at the office address in London. My late father's house had a drive where I can store it

Anyway, if you persue threads on here, you'll see it's 99.99% certain if you plead NG and attend you can substitute the FTF charge with the speeding charge if you seek out the prosecutor on the day.

BTW -your personal details are showing!!

Oh, where? How do I hide this?


Thank you again.
TMC Towcester
QUOTE (Telboyofpeckham @ Fri, 4 Jun 2021 - 16:09) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Fri, 4 Jun 2021 - 15:46) *
It's a little hard to understand your description, and others will contribute, but here's an opening attempt!!

Thank you for your speedy response

I assume the 22nd was the ('administrative') date you became the Registered Keeper(i.e name on the V5C)? However the date DVLA updated their records was almost certainly later, hence why an offence of 18th went to the (then) RK (from whom you bought the van).

On GOV.UK it states that "Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 22 October 2020"

He answered it, but we don't know what he actually put in terms of the keeper at the time (18th). He must have put more than his Nephew's number or he'll be in potential trouble for Failing to Furnish, plus how would a subsequent NIP come to you? I don't understand 'pick up to the police'? But it seems the Nephew did get an NIP and he then nominated you (correctly)?

No, he just put "The vehicle was acquired/transferred on 19/09/2020 and simply a mobile phone number", no name, no address

It read as if you gave DVLA an address where you weren't living (your late Father's house)? That's a weird thing to do and looks to have created the main issue! Why did you do that? Yet you said in your opening description you registered the van at your place of work - is that your late Father's house?

Sorry, I meant that the van registration is at the office address in London. My late father's house had a drive where I can store it

Anyway, if you persue threads on here, you'll see it's 99.99% certain if you plead NG and attend you can substitute the FTF charge with the speeding charge if you seek out the prosecutor on the day.

BTW -your personal details are showing!!

Oh, where? How do I hide this?


Thank you again.


Even more confusing then!

1st - take the image down, cover the name/address details with a Post-It note if it's easier and then repost the attachment (only)

So, on 18th the van was still administratively with the previous owner - somehow his Nephew gave the Police your details and they either used those details or from you name, found you via insurance.......I'm lost on the relevance of the late Father's address if the van is registered at a business address! In any event either address must be one where you can be contacted so you're on the back-foot there.

As per the above from NewJudge you have only been charged with FTF and it's hard to see how you have much defence, given the rather confusing narrative and that you (may?) have provided addresses for the admin of the van, neither of which are serviceable?
DWMB2
The scan of the paperwork you included contains your full name, address, and case reference number. You may want to remove it and re-upload with those details blanked out.
(Edit: post crossed with TMC Towcester)
Tarantula
Does the insurance company have a contact address for you where you would check mail regularly?
andy_foster
From my reading of the OP's account, the vehicle is registered (V5C) to his work address (where presumably he is contactable), but due to failings on the part of the previous keeper and/or the previous keeper's nephew, or possibly just the DVLA's normally efficiency, the change of keeper was not processed (and subsequently uploaded to the PNC) before the police obtained the previous keeper's details as current keeper from the PNC. If the charge was speeding, there might or might not be a defence in the police choosing to rely on the slightly out of date PNC rather than the DVLA, but the charge is failing to provide information, so the issue is whether or not the OP ought to have made some kind of further arrangements to ensure that any such notices were brought to his attention. From what we have been told, I would say that it cannot properly be said that he ought to have made any such arrangements beyond providing his correct details to the seller when he bought the van.

@OP, there is a defence to failing to provide the information if you can satisfy the court (on the balance of probabilities) that it was not reasonably practicable to provide the information. In cases where the accused had not received the s. 172 requirement and therefore was not aware of it (meaning that it would not have been possible to comply with the requirement), lack of knowledge of the requirement is not necessarily a defence - the court can (and will) look into whether or not it would have been reasonably practicable for you to have made arrangements to ensure that you were made aware of such requirements - in the case which gave rise to this principle, the accused had been the RK of the vehicle for some time and was abroad on business for some time and could easily have made arrangements for his staff to check his post at home and inform him of anything which required his prompt attention.

edit: Viz Top Tip™ - lay off the Only Fools and Horses references in court. They won't help your credibility as much as you might think.
Ahelpinggand
Could OP argue that the S172 was not correctly served on the RK as it was sent to the Insurance address rather then the new DVLA keepers address?
southpaw82
QUOTE (Ahelpinggand @ Fri, 4 Jun 2021 - 20:57) *
Could OP argue that the S172 was not correctly served on the RK as it was sent to the Insurance address rather then the new DVLA keepers address?

A s 172 notice doesn’t have to be served on the RK.
Ahelpinggand
I'm aware of that southpaw

I only meant that as the correct address was given to DVLA according to the OP would it be a defence to the FTF charge as they never received a notice at the V5 address?

Not as a stand alone but in conjunction with the information provided by OP
The Rookie
No, as the RK address isn’t relevant at all here.

The S172 was sent to the address provided by the previous RK, if the intended recipient couldn’t be contacted via that address then they clearly have a good defence. For example if the house or street name were wrong so that it was delivered to a completely different house then then no diligence by the OP could ensure he got it so he could reply to it.
southpaw82
QUOTE (Ahelpinggand @ Sat, 5 Jun 2021 - 07:56) *
I only meant that as the correct address was given to DVLA according to the OP would it be a defence to the FTF charge as they never received a notice at the V5 address?

Why is the RK address important? I don’t really follow your line of thought.
Ahelpinggand
Basically what Rookie put above

From the description there was a s172 request sent to an address taken from the insurance database

When no response was forthcoming on that then it has proceeded as a FTF

However even with Due diligence how would the OP know it had been delivered (presumably a month or more after the offence due to time limits on the original s172 etc)

Especially if 4 days after the offence the OP was, according to the DVLA, the RK.

The above assumes the OP hadn't recently moved out of the address prior to the offence and hadn't put in place mail forwarding.

Just wandering if there is a technical defence on the FTF charge if OP is unable to get the original speeding charge from the CPS as it is, in theory, time barred.

If I'm wrong though then fair enough
southpaw82
That would seem to raise two possibilities:

1. That the s 172 notice was not served (meaning there was no need to respond to it)

2. That the s 172 notice was not served but nevertheless the accused had a defence under s 172(7)(b) (not reasonably practicable to reply)

Service of a s 172 notice can be effected at the recipient’s last known address - s 172(9)9(b). Whether the address obtained from the insurance database is the last known address is a matter of fact. I’ve not got the authorities to hand to consider it.

The s 172(7)(b) defence is similarly fact based, though I can see a court thinking that if the OP has given that address to his insurance company (if that’s what happened) he ought to know about any notice served there.
cp8759
Why was the insurance registered at your late father's address? My concern is that while the insurance address is not one which you are under a duty to ensure you are contactable for the purpose of s172 notices, the magistrates might still take the view that the failure to be contactable was still ultimately your fault. The address for insurance purposes should be where you (and presumably the vehicle) are and can receive post (though if for some reason you don't keep the vehicle at your house, you can have separate risk and correspondence addresses with most insurance companies).

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 5 Jun 2021 - 13:18) *
The s 172(7)(b) defence is similarly fact based, though I can see a court thinking that if the OP has given that address to his insurance company (if that’s what happened) he ought to know about any notice served there.

That depends on whether the risk and correspondence addresses are one and the same. If not, the court should only apply this to the correspondence address (think for example of a work vehicle kept in a yard or remote location or similar where for whatever reason post cannot be received).
Ahelpinggand
Could also open a can of worms if insuring it there due to lower premiums

But 1 & 2 were the points I was trying to make.

SP made it much clearer apologies
andy_foster
The OP has told us that both the van and the insurance were at his late father's address. Whilst it might be prudent to ensure that we have all the potentially relevant facts in order to best advise the OP, having the insurance registered (for want of a better word) at the address the vehicle appears to have been kept at does not immediately seem to imply any shenanigans.
Ahelpinggand
Apologies, I hadn't noted that.
disgrunt
What would help me understand this is the timeline of access or otherwise to late fathers house.

E.g. father lived at house when bought van but died x weeks later, or father died x but house empty so used it for parking van at.
Van kept at fathers house until x
Fathers house let on 6 month AST on x
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