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erynorahill
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - November 2020
Date of the NIP: - 0 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 1 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - B4052 ASHLEY DOWN ROAD, BRISTOL
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - On 12th November 2020 I was caught speeding at 28mph in a 20mph zone.

However, I have only just found this out today after receiving a Single Justice Procedure Notice.

The address on my license was until recently incorrect, as I moved house in March 2020.

The original notice will have been sent to my old address, and so I never responded to it.

There are therefore two charges listed on the Single Justice Procedure Notice:

1. Fail to give information relating to the identification of the driver / rider of a vehicle when required (this is dated as 18/12/2020 on the charge sheet)

2. Speeding - exceed 20mph - Local Order - manned equipment

Does anyone have any advice on how to proceed? Apparently if I plead guilty using this notice I will get a 33% reduction on any fine. Is the fact that I had the wrong address on the license a further offence?

NOTE: The dates listed for the NIP above are wrong, I just put the date of the offence as I never actually received an NIP


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 14:46:27 +0000
The Rookie
The NIP is sent to the address given for the registered keeper and as shown on the V5c, so it would appear you forgot to correct that as well as your licence.

You may also want to check the tax (Vehicle Excise Duty) status of the car as you wouldn't have had the tax reminder either.

DO NOT plead guilty, especially not to both (they currently have no evidence you were driving the car detected of speeding), or you'll be on nine points with very stiff rise in insurance costs and one offence away from a totting ban.

Plead NOT guilty to BOTH, it will go to a magistrates court hearing and you should be able to do the common deal and be found guilty of just the speeding.
NewJudge
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 9 Jun 2021 - 15:59) *
Plead NOT guilty to BOTH, it will go to a magistrates court hearing and you should be able to do the common deal and be found guilty of just the speeding.

In fact you would plead guilty to just the speeding. That's what the "deal" entails.
erynorahill
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Wed, 9 Jun 2021 - 16:14) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 9 Jun 2021 - 15:59) *
Plead NOT guilty to BOTH, it will go to a magistrates court hearing and you should be able to do the common deal and be found guilty of just the speeding.

In fact you would plead guilty to just the speeding. That's what the "deal" entails.


So on my plea I should plead not guilty to the "Failure to give information relating to the identification of the driver...", but guilty to the speeding?

Should I write something in the mitigation box then? I'm just worried that forgetting to update the address on my license and V5c is not a valid mitigation for the "Failure to give information relating to the identification of the driver..." charge?

Is there any more information on this common deal?
DWMB2
No - plead 'Not Guilty' to both. This will get the matter sent to magistrates court. When you get there, you can strike a 'deal' with the prosecutor, where you agree to plead guilty to the speeding, on the condition that they drop the "Failing to give information" offence.
Jlc
Read carefully what is written above.

The deal starts with a NOT GUILTY plea to both offences.

At court (this cannot be reliably done via post) you OFFER to plea guilty to the speeding offence IF they drop the more serious charge.
erynorahill
Ok thanks for the advice.

So is the fact that I didn't have the right address on my licence and V5c not a further offence?
666
QUOTE (erynorahill @ Wed, 9 Jun 2021 - 16:57) *
Ok thanks for the advice.

So is the fact that I didn't have the right address on my licence and V5c not a further offence?

No, it's two offences! But prosecution is almost unheard of.
Logician
You should plead Not Guilty to both offences, and then attend court on the date set. As there is no evidence as to who was driving your car, since you have not told them, there should be no conviction for the speeding unless you plead guilty. Get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to you the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. Say to him/her that you will plead guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, and regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. If you do not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, you should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as you would have trouble speaking to the right person.
erynorahill
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 9 Jun 2021 - 17:56) *
You should plead Not Guilty to both offences, and then attend court on the date set. As there is no evidence as to who was driving your car, since you have not told them, there should be no conviction for the speeding unless you plead guilty. Get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to you the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. Say to him/her that you will plead guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, and regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. If you do not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, you should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as you would have trouble speaking to the right person.


UPDATE: After re-reading the whole Single Justice Procedure Notice very carefully, I found a very important paragraph on the last page:

"If your summons contains 2 offences they are 'laid in the alternative'. This means that if you choose to plead 'Guilty' to one offence and 'Not Guilty' to the other the magistrates will only adjudicate on the offence which you have pleaded 'Guilty" and the offence you have pleaded 'Not Guilty" to will be withdrawn on the day of the hearing."

So, I fortunately will not have to go to court and go through the whole rigmarole. I can just plead Guilty to the speeding charge in writing.

It seems strange that this VERY important piece of information was tucked away at the back of the document, it would have been easy to miss it. I imagine many people would have pleaded Guilty to both charges unnecessarily.
The Rookie
NO..... they are quite at liberty to accept your guilty plea to speeding and progress the S172 as well, WE HAVE SEEN THIS HAPPEN. Resulting in 9 points.

DO NOT do that, I've no idea why it says that as there are many times they will be completely different offences, maybe you are reading it out on context, is there not an 'IF' in there somewhere?
Jlc
QUOTE (erynorahill @ Mon, 14 Jun 2021 - 13:40) *
If your summons contains 2 offences they are 'laid in the alternative'.

They are not legally alternative offences! (Although in practice are often treated as such)

As noted, you could get 9 points.

I presume there's nothing to state they are actually laid as alternatives?
erynorahill
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 14 Jun 2021 - 13:52) *
QUOTE (erynorahill @ Mon, 14 Jun 2021 - 13:40) *
If your summons contains 2 offences they are 'laid in the alternative'.


I presume there's nothing to state they are actually laid as alternatives?


Well it literally says "If your summons contains 2 offences they are 'laid in the alternative'." I don't really see how they could argue their way out of that?
TMC Towcester
Unless you want to open the door to the theoretical offence of not updating your driving documents.......plead NG, attend and do the deal. There are examples of 9 point 'results' for those who chose to ignore this advice.

Why take the chance and potentially open another door that is currently firmly shut as well??!!
NewJudge
I wonder if this is a recent development being used in some areas to reduce the number of personal attendances where possible.

The two offences are clearly not legal alternatives. Unlike dangerous/careless driving, they can both be committed as a result of a single incident and one is not committed until at least 28 days (and almost always more than that) after the other.
The Rookie
Indeed, although if the document really does say that (with no applicable caveats) there would be an excellent argument for an abuse of process if they did try and convict him of the second offence.
erynorahill
This is the relevant page:

Jlc
Hmmm, the only reason I'm pausing is it says 'Speeding and/or Failure to Supply Driver's Details'.

If they were alternative then the 'and' shouldn't be there.
NewJudge
Well he has been charged with both offences so "and" is appropriate. I would say that notice is an almost cast iron guarantee that both offences will not be progressed if a guilty plea to one and not guilty to the other is submitted. Interesting that this is Avon & Somerset - they of the "Super NIP". Perhaps they have someone working for them who thinks outside the box.
erynorahill
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Mon, 14 Jun 2021 - 15:06) *
Well he has been charged with both offences so "and" is appropriate. I would say that notice is an almost cast iron guarantee that both offences will not be progressed if a guilty plea to one and not guilty to the other is submitted. Interesting that this is Avon & Somerset - they of the "Super NIP". Perhaps they have someone working for them who thinks outside the box.


Yes this is what I thought.

I have gone ahead with pleading Guilty to the speeding charge and Not Guilty to the other. We have a baby due in a few weeks and to be honest I don't really want to have a court appearance looming over me so I'm taking a calculated risk!
The Rookie
As I put above, on the basis of this I think you would have a good abuse of process argument, it would require and court visit but then you would have needed that anyway.
erynorahill
Thanks to everyone for the advice, I will let you know what happens.
Logician
This is possibly an interesting new development intended to stop wasting a lot of time on these cases.

I wonder what RSS think of it, they have been opposed to regarding the two offences as alternatives.
erynorahill
Well, it looks like I've been given a £300 fine and three points on my licence. Hopefully that is the end of it. Many thanks for all your help.
Gerfc1
QUOTE (erynorahill @ Fri, 2 Jul 2021 - 09:27) *
Well, it looks like I've been given a £300 fine and three points on my licence. Hopefully that is the end of it. Many thanks for all your help.


Does the £300 fine includes the £85 cost and £34 victim surcharge?
erynorahill
QUOTE (Gerfc1 @ Fri, 2 Jul 2021 - 16:16) *
QUOTE (erynorahill @ Fri, 2 Jul 2021 - 09:27) *
Well, it looks like I've been given a £300 fine and three points on my licence. Hopefully that is the end of it. Many thanks for all your help.


Does the £300 fine includes the £85 cost and £34 victim surcharge?


Yes it was £300 in total
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