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LotusOne
Subject now changed as document uploaded, was previoously: Letter registering dispute of PCN
Is there a standard letter anywhere for notifying a disputed PCN to the local Council? Just want to notify them that the PCN is disputed at this time and send them further details later once I have managed to scan in the PCN and obtain advice from this forum.

New message:

  • Will ask for a copy of the "duly authorised Traffic Management Order" as nothing supplied.
  • We entered Howard Road from Station Road in-order to park in the disabled bay at the end of Howard Road. Upon leaving, after medical appointment, we turned around very close to the end of Howard Road and exited back into Station Road.
    The “Turn Left” road marking was not visible to us as where we turned around was beyond that, in fact the arrow-head was almost directly underneath where we turned around.
    From where we turned around the no-right-turn Sign Posts would have been above the roof-line and therefore not visible from that position.


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cp8759
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Wed, 16 Mar 2022 - 13:34) *
Is there a standard letter anywhere for notifying a disputed PCN to the local Council? Just want to notify them that the PCN is disputed at this time and send them further details later once I have managed to scan in the PCN and obtain advice from this forum.

It doesn't work like that, the council will not extend the statutory deadline. Post the PCN on here, even if the deadline is today we can knock something up.
LotusOne
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 16 Mar 2022 - 13:35) *
It doesn't work like that, the council will not extend the statutory deadline. Post the PCN on here, even if the deadline is today we can knock something up.

PCN is dated 3rd March so either today or tomorrow is the deadline for appealing within 14 days. No working scanner at the moment so not easy to get PCN uploaded but working on it.
stamfordman
If you have a smartphone take a picture and put it on an external site.


Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited. https://imgbb.com has BBCode to embed pics on the forum. Set uploads not to autodelete if signed up and using https://imgbb.com Or use Google Docs, Dropbox etc.
cp8759
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Wed, 16 Mar 2022 - 13:47) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 16 Mar 2022 - 13:35) *
It doesn't work like that, the council will not extend the statutory deadline. Post the PCN on here, even if the deadline is today we can knock something up.

PCN is dated 3rd March so either today or tomorrow is the deadline for appealing within 14 days. No working scanner at the moment so not easy to get PCN uploaded but working on it.

What sort of PCN? Parking? Bus lane? something else?

For most PCNs the 14 day period runs from the date of service, which is two working days after the date of issue i.e. 7 March (weekends don't count), that would mean the 14 days expire at midnight on Sunday 7th. For some PCNs the deadline would run from the date of issue, which would make the deadline midnight tonight.

You don't need a scanner, just take a photo on your phone.
LotusOne
Original message now edited with details.
stamfordman
We need to see the video to see if your manoeuvre is a good case although it may not be shown. The signage as it stands is very clear. If you PM me the details I'll post the video.


https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5581139,0.2...6384!8i8192

LotusOne
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 16 Mar 2022 - 17:12) *
... If you PM me the details I'll post the video.


Message sent
stamfordman
The start of the video does just about show you came from across the road but the signs should still have been visible so I think you'll struggle to challenge this.

But assuming you're a BB holder that's always worth a shout.

LotusOne
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 16 Mar 2022 - 18:01) *
The start of the video does just about show you came from across the road but the signs should still have been visible so I think you'll struggle to challenge this.

But assuming you're a BB holder that's always worth a shout.

Just been back there today to check it out and from that disabled bay when sitting at normal driving height the signs are too high to see.

How long have I got to get this appeal in?
Neil B
Just need to be realistic about this.
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Wed, 16 Mar 2022 - 18:14) *
Just been back there today to check it out and from that disabled bay when sitting at normal driving height the signs are too high to see.

Does this mean you didn't get out of the car at some point? Where you would easily been able to see the twin signs.

And the road legends were immediately next to the bay you were in.

cp8759
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Wed, 16 Mar 2022 - 18:14) *
How long have I got to get this appeal in?

The absolute deadline is 3 April, but the council is not under any obligation to re-offer the discount so if the council website will still accept £65, you might want to consider paying it now before it goes up. I can't see any viable grounds of appeal.
LotusOne
QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 16 Mar 2022 - 19:24) *
Does this mean you didn't get out of the car at some point? Where you would easily been able to see the twin signs.

And the road legends were immediately next to the bay you were in.

Yes but why would I be looking for something that I am not expecting to see?

When I am walking I might be aware of signs intended for pedestrians, when I am driving I look at signs intended for drivers, when on the pavement I wouldn't be looking at signs intended for drivers. When leaving and returning to the car I had more important things to worry about than looking around for road signs that I am not expecting to see, like getting a vwery elderly person who can hardly stand let alone walk in/out of the car.
I have been turning right out of Howard road for years so have no reason to expect to see no-right-turn signs here.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 Mar 2022 - 11:33) *
The absolute deadline is 3 April, but the council is not under any obligation to re-offer the discount so if the council website will still accept £65, you might want to consider paying it now before it goes up. I can't see any viable grounds of appeal.

So do I need to send the letter of appeal within 14-days to pause the fine at £65 or does that happen even if between 14-days and 28-days?

What about the Traffic Management Order, isn't it necessary for the Council to provide this before they can take the case to court?
cp8759
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Thu, 17 Mar 2022 - 12:50) *
So do I need to send the letter of appeal within 14-days to pause the fine at £65 or does that happen even if between 14-days and 28-days?

You are only entitled to pay the discount during the initial 14 day period. Once you make a representation, it's entirely down to the council whether to re-offer it. Most of the time they do because if they don't, there would be nothing to lose in appealing anyway.

QUOTE (LotusOne @ Thu, 17 Mar 2022 - 12:50) *
What about the Traffic Management Order, isn't it necessary for the Council to provide this before they can take the case to court?

There is no court, but if you make a representation and it is rejected, you can appeal to the tribunal. At that point the council needs to provide a copy of the traffic order, but by then the discount option is lost. It's unlikely a no-right turn traffic order would be missing or defective.
LotusOne
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 Mar 2022 - 13:09) *
... It's unlikely a no-right turn traffic order would be missing or defective.

Well Havering Council do have a history of lying about & misrepresenting TMOs and not providing them so I will believe it when I see it.
Neil B
You didn't seem to like my last input so you'll probably like this even less.

QUOTE (LotusOne @ Thu, 17 Mar 2022 - 12:50) *
So do I need to send the letter of appeal within 14-days to pause the fine at £65

No, they need to receive it by the deadline, so online would have been best.
But that deadline expired yesterday.
Hence >
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 Mar 2022 - 11:33) *
if the council website will still accept £65, you might want to consider paying it

cp8759
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Thu, 17 Mar 2022 - 13:57) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 Mar 2022 - 13:09) *
... It's unlikely a no-right turn traffic order would be missing or defective.

Well Havering Council do have a history of lying about & misrepresenting TMOs and not providing them so I will believe it when I see it.

Sure if you don't mind risking the full amount take it all the way. Of course if you get to the tribunal and they come up with the TMO, you appeal might fall flat on its face, but presumably that's a risk you're happy to take.
LotusOne
Havering Council have now sent a "Charge Certificate" and have completely ignored my letter of appeal. Do I need to reply to this and send the appeal letter again or just ignore it for the moment?
cp8759
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Mon, 11 Apr 2022 - 13:32) *
Havering Council have now sent a "Charge Certificate" and have completely ignored my letter of appeal. Do I need to reply to this and send the appeal letter again or just ignore it for the moment?

Well it's a representation rather than an appeal, it's only an appeal at the tribunal stage.

Anyway did you make a representation online, or did you send a letter in the post?
LotusOne
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 11 Apr 2022 - 18:02) *
Anyway did you make a representation online, or did you send a letter in the post?

Sent by post.
cp8759
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Tue, 12 Apr 2022 - 16:41) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 11 Apr 2022 - 18:02) *
Anyway did you make a representation online, or did you send a letter in the post?

Sent by post.

Right so you have no idea whether the council ignored your representation or whether the letter was simply lost in the post. In any event you now need to follow the Statutory Declaration process, which is detailed here: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process (scroll to the bottom of the page and read the "Statutory Declaration" paragraph).

In order to avoid any issues with the Order for Recovery going missing in the post, I would suggest you contact the Traffic Enforcement Centre once a week after the charge certificate deadline has expired. You don't actually need the Order for Recovery to file a statutory declaration, once TEC confirm the debt has been registered, you can download the forms online, get them sworn at your local county or magistrates' court, and then you can email it to TEC. All TEC's contact details are here: https://www.find-court-tribunal.service.gov...ment-centre-tec
Neil B
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Tue, 12 Apr 2022 - 15:41) *
Sent by post.

In the form specified on the PCN and to the address specified?
LotusOne
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 12 Apr 2022 - 17:59) *
In the form specified on the PCN and to the address specified?

As far as I know yes. Address is correct and letter contains name, address and signature as specified. Was also sent with proof of posting which I am now very glad I remembered to do.
Neil B
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Thu, 14 Apr 2022 - 15:21) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 12 Apr 2022 - 17:59) *
In the form specified on the PCN and to the address specified?

As far as I know yes. Address is correct and letter contains name, address and signature as specified. Was also sent with proof of posting which I am now very glad I remembered to do.

All sounds good.
What was the date of the Charge Certificate?
LotusOne
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 14 Apr 2022 - 20:25) *
What was the date of the Charge Certificate?

5/4/22
LotusOne
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 12 Apr 2022 - 17:30) *
I would suggest you contact the Traffic Enforcement Centre once a week after the charge certificate deadline has expired.

Has anyone ever managed to get through to the TEC by telephone? I have spent nearly two days now trying to get through, just get held in a queue and eventually cut-off, every time. This is costing me a fortune in phone bills.
Neil B
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Thu, 21 Apr 2022 - 14:59) *
Has anyone ever managed to get through to the TEC by telephone? I have spent nearly two days now trying to get through, just get held in a queue and eventually cut-off, every time. This is costing me a fortune in phone bills.

Yes, all the time.
Bills? Who pays for mobile calls these days? Genuine question.
If you agree to take the survey it seems to bump you up the waiting list. In a test I ran it was from 11th to 3rd.
Then it averages about 20 mins wait but I have been picked up in less than 5 mins several times.

More importantly and I'm sorry I didn't say this earlier, the earliest they could register the debt is today, so you are a bit early.
Start at the end of the month and then every 12 days.
LotusOne
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 21 Apr 2022 - 15:10) *
Bills? Who pays for mobile calls these days? Genuine question.

Calling from Landline, no mobile.
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 21 Apr 2022 - 15:10) *
If you agree to take the survey it seems to bump you up the waiting list. In a test I ran it was from 11th to 3rd.
Then it averages about 20 mins wait but I have been picked up in less than 5 mins several times.

Thanks will try going for the survey next time.
Neil B
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Thu, 21 Apr 2022 - 15:56) *
Thanks will try going for the survey next time.

You don't actually have to do it btw, just agree to it.
It comes later by text and is very short anyway.
I don't know how it would work for a landline.
LotusOne
Just had a threatening letter from Havering Council about them registering the debts with Northampton County Court if not paid within seven days. Am I correct in assuming that this is the Traffic Enforcement Centre they are referring to or do they have some other way of recovering the debt which avoids the TEC?
Neil B
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Sat, 23 Apr 2022 - 17:33) *
Just had a threatening letter from Havering Council about them registering the debts with Northampton County Court if not paid within seven days. Am I correct in assuming that this is the Traffic Enforcement Centre they are referring to or do they have some other way of recovering the debt which avoids the TEC?

Just ignore it. We hate these and they are borderline legal.
Yes they mean TEC. What's the date on it?

Mr Mustard may like a copy if you can contact him -- or just show it here?
LotusOne
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 23 Apr 2022 - 17:56) *
Just ignore it. We hate these and they are borderline legal.
Yes they mean TEC. What's the date on it?

Mr Mustard may like a copy if you can contact him -- or just show it here?

Don't seem to be able to upload that file for some reason. Not space, have deleted all others so there is plenty of space for this file but just won't upload.
cp8759
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Mon, 25 Apr 2022 - 13:04) *
Don't seem to be able to upload that file for some reason. Not space, have deleted all others so there is plenty of space for this file but just won't upload.

There is no upload space here, just make a folder on google drive, dropbox or similar and post a link to the folder on here.
LotusOne
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 25 Apr 2022 - 15:19) *
There is no upload space here, just make a folder on google drive, dropbox or similar and post a link to the folder on here.

But isn't there supposed to be 1.95Mb per user here for uploading such files?
cp8759
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Mon, 25 Apr 2022 - 15:42) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 25 Apr 2022 - 15:19) *
There is no upload space here, just make a folder on google drive, dropbox or similar and post a link to the folder on here.

But isn't there supposed to be 1.95Mb per user here for uploading such files?

You can make a thread about that under "website design" here if you wish http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=3

In the meantime I'd take the pragmatic approach and for the purpose of this thread, just use an external site.
LotusOne
Just got through to the TEC, took about ten mins as I selected to do the survey, they said not registered yet and that I shouldn't call them untill I receive an Order for Recovery from the local authority.
Neil B
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Thu, 28 Apr 2022 - 11:52) *
Just got through to the TEC, took about ten mins as I selected to do the survey, they said not registered yet and that I shouldn't call them untill I receive an Order for Recovery from the local authority.

Cheek.

You call them when you need to, which at present for you is 12 days time.
cp8759
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 28 Apr 2022 - 12:10) *
You call them when you need to, which at present for you is 12 days time.

Quite. If they don't want people to call, they could always just build an online portal to look stuff up for yourself.
LotusOne
Thinking about giving-up with calling the Traffic Enforcement Centre every week or two, still nothing regestered with them by Havering Council. This could go on for years.
LotusOne
Don't believe it, no sooner had I sent the message above when the Order for Recovery came in the post. Looks like I now need to do the Statutory Declaration.

Should the Statutory Declaration be done by the vehicle owner (in whos name the Order for Recovery is) or can it be done by the person who was driving at the time?
Incandescent
Person on the V5C, (assumed as owner). The driver has no role in the appeal process.
cp8759
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 12:04) *
Should the Statutory Declaration be done by the vehicle owner (in whos name the Order for Recovery is) or can it be done by the person who was driving at the time?

The Statutory Declaration can only be made by the person whose name is on the Order for Recovery.
LotusOne
On the Statutory Declaration can anyone tell me what I am supposed to put in the "My reasons are (give full reasons)" box? Do I just say "See attached letter" and attach the letter of representation along with it's proof of posting.

Edit:
Also just noticed that the charges on the Order for Recovery don't add up:
Amount of Charge: £130
Court Registration Fee: £9
Total: £204
Are they supposed to?
cp8759
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 14:42) *
On the Statutory Declaration can anyone tell me what I am supposed to put in the "My reasons are (give full reasons)" box? Do I just say "See attached letter" and attach the letter of representation along with it's proof of posting.

Don't attach anything and just leave the box blank, it's not needed.

QUOTE (LotusOne @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 14:42) *
Edit:
Also just noticed that the charges on the Order for Recovery don't add up:
Amount of Charge: £130
Court Registration Fee: £9
Total: £204
Are they supposed to?

The charges do add up, you've forgotten the £65 added by the Charge Certificate.
LotusOne
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 17:17) *
Don't attach anything and just leave the box blank, it's not needed.


Thanks, just need to get the registered keeper along to a Solicitors now to get it witnessed properly.
cp8759
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 13:06) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 17:17) *
Don't attach anything and just leave the box blank, it's not needed.


Thanks, just need to get the registered keeper along to a Solicitors now to get it witnessed properly.

You can just make an appointment with your local county court or magistrates' court, it's free.
LotusOne
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 14:13) *
You can just make an appointment with your local county court or magistrates' court, it's free.

Couldn't ever get through to local Country Court by telephone to make an appointment so went to a local Solicitor who charged £5 for doing it. He seemed to think that our local County Court charge around £25-£30 for this service.
cp8759
QUOTE (LotusOne @ Fri, 15 Jul 2022 - 13:14) *
He seemed to think that our local County Court charge around £25-£30 for this service.

No they don't, it's free, but for £5 you really got a bargain considering you saved yourself the need to faff about with an understaffed, overstretched court service.
LotusOne
Statutory Declaration now accepted and current PCN cancelled. Thank you for all the help and advice received on here.

Just now to wait and see if Havering reissue the PCN again.
cp8759
Did they send you a copy of the PCN with the Order for Recovery?
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