dw2
Tue, 21 Jun 2022 - 07:07
Hi, I was wondering if anyone could help with appealing entering and stopping in a box junction when you were unaware you wouldn't fit in at the other side? It won't let me uploda a photo, but will keep trying.
Thanks,
Incandescent
Tue, 21 Jun 2022 - 07:16
You'll get help here, but you need to tell us a lot more than your single sentence.
stamfordman
Tue, 21 Jun 2022 - 08:15
Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited. https://imgbb.com has BBCode to embed pics on the forum. Set uploads not to autodelete if signed up and using https://imgbb.com Or use Google Docs, Dropbox etc.
Put videos on Youtube, Vimeo or such like.
cp8759
Tue, 21 Jun 2022 - 09:46
QUOTE (dw2 @ Tue, 21 Jun 2022 - 08:07)
Hi, I was wondering if anyone could help with appealing entering and stopping in a box junction when you were unaware you wouldn't fit in at the other side? It won't let me uploda a photo, but will keep trying.
For this sort of contravention we need to see the video as well as the PCN. Upload everything to a dropbox or google drive folder, then post a link to the folder on here.
dw2
Tue, 21 Jun 2022 - 10:24
https://ibb.co/jHfdtxW - here is the photo. I will try and upload the video to youtube.
cp8759
Tue, 21 Jun 2022 - 12:28
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taZ4w3vGO4QHate to tell you but this looks banged-to-rights.
stamfordman
Tue, 21 Jun 2022 - 12:30
Yes can't see anything here. The lane you were in really had no expectation of fitting in four cars although there was a bit more space if other cars had moved up. It is a big box though and easy to assume you'd make it.
As we often see you had bags of room to exit the box on the right, which is frustrating to watch.
dw2
Tue, 21 Jun 2022 - 12:40
So am I better just to pay reduced rate or (vainly) attempt to appeal on this grounds?
stamfordman
Tue, 21 Jun 2022 - 13:21
Wait for Mr Chips to have a look as he's good at these.
We have some old guidance from H&F on expectation of clearing the box in normal traffic flow so given the size of the box and hard to see what's beyond this could be tried.
MrChips
Tue, 21 Jun 2022 - 14:51
Sorry - can't see much hope here either I'm afraid.
1 - caused vehicle to enter the box [check]
2 - so that it had to stop in the box [check]
3 - due to stationary vehicles [check]
Turning right exemption doesn't apply. The junction looks to be placed in an appropriate location. Description of location in PCN looks to be accurate [albeit the most verbose I've ever seen]. I've searched tribunal register and only found one previous decision here which didn't throw up any other potential grounds of challenge.
As has already been said, for future reference better to move yourself across to a vacant lane that can accommodate your vehicle.
Only very minor point is that the video just stops abruptly and doesn't show you exit the box. I've seen reference to adjudications where this has been sited as a reason to allow an appeal as the adjudicator wanted to see the whole manoeuvre through the box from start to finish but I would guess that was specific to the facts as applied in that case [perhaps turning right exemption was potentially in play in that/those cases].
Schofeldt
Tue, 21 Jun 2022 - 20:37
QUOTE (dw2 @ Tue, 21 Jun 2022 - 11:24)
https://ibb.co/jHfdtxW - here is the photo. I will try and upload the video to youtube.
And the second page please.
astralite
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 - 07:58
Views on any chance of a Representation on time shown on the PCN?
The vehicle was not in the box at 14.01. It entered at 14.01.41 and stopped at 14.01.46.
Incandescent
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 - 08:27
QUOTE (astralite @ Wed, 22 Jun 2022 - 08:58)
Views on any chance of a Representation on time shown on the PCN?
The vehicle was not in the box at 14.01. It entered at 14.01.41 and stopped at 14.01.46.
Pretty thin gruel. If you want to contest based on this, then you'll end up at the adjudicators, and the discount option is lost.
cp8759
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 - 12:05
QUOTE (astralite @ Wed, 22 Jun 2022 - 08:58)
Views on any chance of a Representation on time shown on the PCN?
The vehicle was not in the box at 14.01. It entered at 14.01.41 and stopped at 14.01.46.
The expression "
14.01" covers the time period from 14:01:00 to 14:01:59.
Rob232
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 - 17:32
any mileage in the fact that the box junction is sited at the junction of a road (uxbridge road) and of a buses-only road? Ariel Way seems to be an access road to the shopping centre which, i assume, cars can't use. I can't confirm the exit is buses-only, we see a moped in the vid, and a van in GSV, but they may be in contravention of signs further along Ariel way.
Isn't there a list of acceptable places where YBJs can be sited, and needs SOS authorisation if not on the list?
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5044363,-0....6384!8i8192
Incandescent
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 - 19:18
Even thinner gruel, maybe ! The law is that a Yellow Box Jn has to be at the junction of two or more roads. In addition to this, these roads must all allow the public access to them. Whether a bus-only road is not within the "public access" definition, I don't know, but somebody on here will know. However there seems to be doubt in your post that the road actually is a bus-only road, so best to check this out.
Rob232
Wed, 22 Jun 2022 - 19:26
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 22 Jun 2022 - 20:18)
Even thinner gruel, maybe ! The law is that a Yellow Box Jn has to be at the junction of two or more roads. In addition to this, these roads must all allow the public access to them. Whether a bus-only road is not within the "public access" definition, I don't know, but somebody on here will know. However there seems to be doubt in your post that the road actually is a bus-only road, so best to check this out.
yeah GSV doesn't go up there, except on the pavement somehow. And going left at holland park roundabout and up the slip road entrance to the shopping centre it doesnt seem to go further than the traffic lights. So a visit by someone other than me possibly?
cp8759
Sat, 25 Jun 2022 - 10:16
QUOTE (Rob232 @ Wed, 22 Jun 2022 - 18:32)
any mileage in the fact that the box junction is sited at the junction of a road (uxbridge road) and of a buses-only road?
A road being buses-only would make no difference, as the buses are accessible to the public (you could drive a minibus down a bus-only road) and to pedestrians. In any case it's only buses-only in one direction, if you look at the other lane on GSV
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5075114,-0....6384!8i8192 you can see private cars driving down it and the google car obviously drove down it too
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5049046,-0....6384!8i8192
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