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george74
Received a PCN for parking in a red route parking bay.

I parked in this red route parking bay here:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/W2YB9Kf7QsbyJkF26

I parked at 1pm for 1 minute before realising I could not park there and left.

I was not loading/delivering anything.

Does a 10 minute grace period apply?

Thank you
stamfordman
Post the PCN.

Problem is red routes are no stopping contraventions. You are supposed to see traffic facing signs on red routes.

There is no grace period here.

You can also ask TFL for the video to show a brief stop that could be seen as trivial.

PASTMYBEST
Get the video we need to see that to assess any chance of challenging on the contravention. There is a technical argument re red routes that one of our members is putting but it is untested at present

You will need to phone and ask TFL for the video, they will send you a DVD
george74
https://ibb.co/GpYcM2M
cp8759
Call TFL and ask for the video, they will send you a DVD in the post and put the penalty on hold while you wait.
george74
I got the DVD.

The video is about 2 minutes long.

13:01:26 I enter the parking space.
13:02:36 I leave the parking space.

So I was there for just over a minute.
cp8759
Can you please upload the video so that we can have a look?
george74
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 13 Jul 2022 - 22:00) *
Can you please upload the video so that we can have a look?


Do I need to? The video shows my face and numberplate which I don't want to show.
phantomcrusader
To serve a CCTV based postal PCN, a contravention needs to have occurred on a road in the circumstances specified in regulation 11.

Regulation 11 permits a CCTV based postal PCN to be served where a vehicle is stationary on a red route. Regulation 11 goes on to define a red route as

QUOTE
“red route” means a road marked in accordance with—
(a)diagram 1018.2 at item 11 or diagram 1017.1 at item 12 in Part 4 of Schedule 7 to the Traffic Signs Regulations, and
(b)the upright sign at Part 1 of Schedule 6 to those Regulations;


In other words, where a single or double red line is marked. The accepted definition of “road” is any length of highway or of any other road to which the public has access.

In this case the length of highway where the vehicle was parked is not marked with a single or double red line. It is marked with a parking bay (the permitted red variant of diagram 1028.4).

The definition of red route for CCTV parking contravention purposes does not include any parking bay markings. Therefore, could it not be argued that it is ultra vires to serve a CCTV based postal PCN since the vehicle was stationary in a parking bay and not stationary on any length of highway (road) marked with single or double red lines?
cp8759
QUOTE (george74 @ Thu, 14 Jul 2022 - 12:16) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 13 Jul 2022 - 22:00) *
Can you please upload the video so that we can have a look?


Do I need to? The video shows my face and numberplate which I don't want to show.

Up to you, the adjudicator will get to see the video so if we can't see it, it might prejudice your appeal as we can't give you advice based on what it shows. However if you appeal your number plate will end up in the statutory register anyway, so trying to hide it is mostly pointless. You could of course just share the video via private message.

This can be used regardless of what the video shows:
Dear Transport for London,

I challenge liability on the basis that the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case. The alleged contravention is "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)", but this is not a civil contravention because there is no corresponding offence under paragraph 3(2) of Schedule 7 to the Traffic Management Act 2004. It follows that the only penalty that may be demanded in nil, and the PCN must be cancelled.

Furthermore service of a postal PCN in these circumstances is unlawful. Regulation 11 of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022 only permits service of a postal PCN on a red route where the road is marked in accordance with either diagram 1018.2 at item 11 or diagram 1017.1 at item 12 in Part 4 of Schedule 7 to the Traffic Signs Regulations, the section of road where my vehicle was filmed is not marked with either of these and in such circumstances, the power to serve a postal PCN does not arise. It follows that service of a postal PCN in this case amounts to a procedural impropriety and the penalty must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,
Well done to phantomcrusader for spotting that wording in reg 11.
george74
Thank you for the message to write.

I've uploaded the video here: https://vimeo.com/730495335
cp8759
From the video it looks like you were trying to gain access to off-road premises (specifically the tyre shop), can you tell us anything about this? There is a legal exemption that allows for stopping in such circumstances.
george74
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 18 Jul 2022 - 14:39) *
From the video it looks like you were trying to gain access to off-road premises (specifically the tyre shop), can you tell us anything about this? There is a legal exemption that allows for stopping in such circumstances.


You're right - I went to the tyre shop. I went to ask them to make space so I could enter the shop
cp8759
So you see the video was worth showing to us after all. Revised reps:
Dear Transport for London,

I challenge liability on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur. It is permitted to stop on a red route to gain access to off-street premises, this exemption is included in red route traffic orders because access to premise could otherwise become impossible. On this occasion my destination was the Top Notch Tyres (UK) Ltd premises, the entrance to the premises was obstructed so I briefly spoke to the tyre shop staff to ask them to remove the obstruction and allow me to drive in. As you can see from the video, once I returned to my vehicle I drove into the off-street premises of the tyre shop. As I only stopped for as long as was reasonably necessary to secure access to off-street premises, the alleged contravention did not occur.

Furthermore, I challenge liability on the basis that the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case. The alleged contravention is "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)", but this is not a civil contravention because there is no corresponding offence under paragraph 3(2) of Schedule 7 to the Traffic Management Act 2004. It follows that the only penalty that may be demanded in nil, and the PCN must be cancelled.

Finally service of a postal PCN in these circumstances is unlawful. Regulation 11 of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022 only permits service of a postal PCN on a red route where the road is marked in accordance with either diagram 1018.2 at item 11 or diagram 1017.1 at item 12 in Part 4 of Schedule 7 to the Traffic Signs Regulations, the section of road where my vehicle was filmed is not marked with either of these and in such circumstances, the power to serve a postal PCN does not arise. It follows that service of a postal PCN in this case amounts to a procedural impropriety and the penalty must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,
Suffice to say you have a fairly rock solid case now. To beat you TFL would need to defeat all three arguments in the tribunal, while you only need to succeed on one point in order to win.
george74
Fair play, thank you very much for the help
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