Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: NTO from Greenwich Council - no PCN on car although photo'd with one
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
Mike_S
Hi,

I've received an NTO from Greenwich council where my car was observed as being parked on Tunnel Avenue at the end of April.




At no point has a PCN been left on my car although the photos on the evidence page show otherwise.
There is no signage anywhere on the road to mention parking restrictions (see Tunnel Avenue google map link above) and the yellow line was unclear as it it is faded and covered by dust and debris where the car is photographed:












Based on the evidence photos do I have a valid case to contest on unclear road markings and lack of signage?
Otherwise do I at least challenge that the PCN was either removed, discarded or disappeared that any offer for discounted penalty wasn't available ?

many thanks in advance for advise
stamfordman
It's a yellow line in a controlled zone and the line looks about OK - doesn't have to be pristine.

You have to pass zone entry signs for the line to be valid so check your route into the zone.

They will at least reoffer the discount as PCNs often go missing.

https://www.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/info/2002...d_parking_zones

Mike_S
Thanks SM.
Route would have been straight off the A2.
Looks like one would pass a craftily planted CPZ sign on the right hand side here in the shrubbery. You would be taking the middle lane to go straight on in to Tunnel ave:






Sounds like there's not much option then but I have to say I'd not noticed the CPZ signs and there's a strong likelihood it would be obstructed by other (and larger) vehicles that exit the A2 at that point?

Is it best to contest just that PCN wasn't on the vehicle as photo'd so no discounted rate was originally offered ? or contest on the signage etc and they are likely to reject and offer goodwill discounted fee? dry.gif
stamfordman
That zone sign could well be overgrown at this time of year. Wait for others to have a look.

What date is the NTO.
Mike_S
Left the NTO til late as it was inconveniently stashed in a pile of papers by a family member
Date of notice is 30th May so today is probably 28th day after it would be delivered - although we were away until jun 3rd so wouldn’t have been received before then
Neil B
QUOTE (Mike_S @ Mon, 27 Jun 2022 - 22:43) *
Left the NTO til late as it was inconveniently stashed in a pile of papers by a family member
Date of notice is 30th May so today is probably 28th day after it would be delivered - although we were away until jun 3rd so wouldn’t have been received before then

deadline for response is tomorrow
Mike_S
Thanks Neil
I figured the NTO was saying the 28 day to contest was inclusive of the day of delivery which they’d take to be 31st May so thought it might be today if the case
stamfordman
Draft something on lines of:

Puzzled to get NTO as no PCN on car when returned to car

Can see from council pics that there may be a faded yellow line but this wasn't seen and there are no timeplates.

Realise it is in a controlled zone from Greenwich map but entry sign not seen and from this google image the single sign on my entry from A2 may well have been obscured by shrubbery.



Neil B
QUOTE (Mike_S @ Mon, 27 Jun 2022 - 23:31) *
Thanks Neil
I figured the NTO was saying the 28 day to contest was inclusive of the day of delivery which they’d take to be 31st May so thought it might be today if the case

The Regs deem notices served after two working days.
Your inclusion of a day is correct. = 28th
Mike_S
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 27 Jun 2022 - 23:58) *
Draft something on lines of:

Puzzled to get NTO as no PCN on car when returned to car

Can see from council pics that there may be a faded yellow line but this wasn't seen and there are no timeplates.

Realise it is in a controlled zone from Greenwich map but entry sign not seen and from this google image the single sign on my entry from A2 may well have been obscured by shrubbery.


thumbsup.gif thumbsup.gif
cp8759
Assume the council will reject, so go back now and get photos of the CPZ entry sign.
Mike_S
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 28 Jun 2022 - 14:18) *
Assume the council will reject, so go back now and get photos of the CPZ entry sign.

I'm assuming they'll reject it too unfortunately based on other threads I've been reading through here.
Looking again at the CPZ signage there is a another in the left side of the lane too lane that wouldn't really grab the attn of a driver going straight or right and its obstructed at a point by another sign in front but they'll argue that to no doubt:









Mike_S
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 27 Jun 2022 - 23:58) *
Draft something on lines of:

Puzzled to get NTO as no PCN on car when returned to car

Can see from council pics that there may be a faded yellow line but this wasn't seen and there are no timeplates.

Realise it is in a controlled zone from Greenwich map but entry sign not seen and from this google image the single sign on my entry from A2 may well have been obscured by shrubbery.


I'm not much of a wordsmith, is the following acceptable ?


With regards to this Notice to Owner received for penalty charge notice number XXXXX, while its clear in the photo evidence that a PCN was placed on the windscreen of my vehicle on 22nd April 2022, something or someone must have removed as at no time was I aware of a penalty charge until receipt of this NTO, which is why no challenge was previously submitted or penalty paid

From the photos provided in your evidence I challenge this penalty because the markings on the road where my vehicle of photographed as parked were unclear due to fading and obstruction from dust and debris on the road surface. Additionally there are no observable time plates in the vicinity of where the photographs are taken.

I've been made aware that there is controlled zone Greenwich, however this may not have been clear at the time as the Controlled Parking Zone signage on the A2 exit at Tunnel Avenue may well have been obscured by shrubbery on the roadside where the signs are place as seen in this google image : <insert link>

It would therefore have been difficult to know that a violation had taken place and would ask therefore that you cancel this penalty charge

Yours faithfully,
stamfordman
Looks good to me but aren't you a day late now* - better get it in pronto. Anything is better than nothing as you at least want the discount back.

* Wasn't sure what Neil said.
Mike_S
Thanks for your help SM

I think Neil was saying today is final day to submit challenge because the my assume 2 days for notice to be served. So would mean today is the 28th day
Mike_S
Posted challenge on their website last night - craftily designed to make you select “pay charge” at every opportunity along the way of the challenge process glare.gif glare.gif

I’ll keep you updated on response/conclusion

Many thanks again all for your help with this and all your work on this forum
cp8759
Mike_S as I said above, if you want to pursue this at the tribunal stage you need to go back and get photos of the CPZ signs. If this isn't possible let us know, if there's a forum member in the area they might be able to get some photos for you.
Mike_S
Understood. It’s not something I can get done immediately but should be able to do over the coming week or so if necessary
Cheers
cp8759
QUOTE (Mike_S @ Thu, 30 Jun 2022 - 00:14) *
Understood. It’s not something I can get done immediately but should be able to do over the coming week or so if necessary
Cheers

OK great, make sure to get some shots of both signs, wide-angle shots are best to illustrate their visibility (or lack thereof).
Mike_S
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 30 Jun 2022 - 11:08) *
OK great, make sure to get some shots of both signs, wide-angle shots are best to illustrate their visibility (or lack thereof).



I’ve not heard anything back yet but guess there is still time…

Here are some more photos of the CPZ signage - as it’s a slip road there isn’t really an opportunity to stand to take photos so they had to be taken whilst in the car
The sign on the right is definitely obstructed by the vegetation and on the left there are other signs taking it out of one’s line of sight when approaching

Additionally the Van gives a good example that when there is large vehicle traffic (as there often is on the A2 and at that slip road), the signs can be obstructed












cp8759
Let us know when you get the rejection.
Mike_S
Leyte thing, will do
Thanks CP
Mike_S
Still yet to receive anything back from Greenwich Council....
Is there a time in which they need to respond of is it just a once sided thing where the public are given strict timelines to pay/contest ?
cp8759
You have a Notice to Owner so we're at the formal representations stage. This being the case they have 56 days from when they received the representation to respond, if they don't then the representation is deemed to have been accepted.
Mike_S
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 14 Aug 2022 - 23:22) *
You have a Notice to Owner so we're at the formal representations stage. This being the case they have 56 days from when they received the representation to respond, if they don't then the representation is deemed to have been accepted.


Good to know - thanks again CP
I’ll look out for something from them although I’m gonna be away for a couple of weeks so might not be around immediately if/when it comes
Mike_S
Good news!!
Just returned from holiday to an acceptance of representation because they were unable to respond within 56 days:


Many thanks again cp8759, Stamfordman & Neil B for your prompt and informative responses. Really appreciated icon_thumleft.gif
Incandescent
Makes me laugh when they say this doesn't create a precedent ! Sorry, lads, the law's the law so if you're late again, you'll again have to cancel again.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2024 Invision Power Services, Inc.