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jst0l
Hi, on Sunday 20th March we parked on Oxford Road in Haringey, and returned to our car having received a PCN from Haringey for parking in a residents' bay without a permit.

Bay is situated here on Oxford Road:

Oxford Road - Haringey Council

As you can see usually it operates Mon-Sat, but on match and event days it operates on Sunday as well. We didn't see an entry sign stating that it was an event day (the council claimed there was one), however I went on the Haringey website to determine whether there were any events. According to the website the street lies within the "Finsbury Park" CPZ, and upon clicking the link as below, the website explains the additional restrictions on "Arsenal Match Day and Finsbury Park Event days only".

Finsbury Park CPZ

Arsenal were not playing that day, and I also searched for events in Finsbury Park, and there was nothing listed on the website (I subsequently took a screenshot to prove this). However, upon returning to our car we had received a PCN (as had multiple other cars).

We submitted a formal appeal, explaining the above and including the screenshots, however this was rejected, on the grounds that "Tottenham Hotspur were playing that day". This is factually correct- they played West Ham that afternoon - however where I parked was no-where near the Spurs restricted parking zone!!

Full text from the rejection is as follows:

There is a sign where you parked that explains that the bay you parked in is for people with a resident's permit.
You were issued a PCN for parking without a valid resident's permit. Paper and virtual permits can be used in that bay. Paper permits must be clearly displayed so that all details are visible. If no permit is seen, Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO)s check their handheld computers to see if the vehicle has a valid virtual permit.
We have noted your comments made in your challenge, the time plate clearly sets out parking was not restricted on a Sunday, except for match days or event days between 12 noon to 4.30pm. You mentioned you followed the link provided to the Arsenal website and no fixtures was listed for 20 March 2022.
On the day of the contravention there was football match taking place at Tottenham stadium, Tottenham Hot Spurs were playing West Ham United. Parking is restricted on Sunday between noon to 4.30pm on event days. There are time plates located at the entry point into the control parking zone (CPZ), informing residents / motorist when there is an event taken place and event day restrictions apply. We have considered the circumstance put forward, however we are unable to cancel this PCN.


Notice to Owner was dated 1 June so I think today is the last day to appeal? Was going to do so on the grounds that the contravention did not occur, but welcome any help here. Here is the notice to owner. Unfortunately yahoomail is down right now so I can't paste the exact rejection response to my informal appeal




thanks!
stamfordman
It's their mistake - those zones by Finsbury Park are for Arsenal match days not Spurs as you have already ascertained.

Someone needs a (football) boot up their backside.

Draft formal reps and post here first.
PASTMYBEST
Because of the spring bank holiday the date of service would be the 7th of June so the 28 day period ends on the 4th of July so no immediate rush
cp8759
You must put the council to proof on the signage: legally the website isn't worth diddly squat, the council *must* use traffic signs to inform motorists that "today is an event day". Councils often claim that such signs were in place, but whenever we've challenged them on this they have never come up with any evidence and typically they just roll-over and DNC at the tribunal.

Exactly where did you enter the CPZ?

As far as I can tell it must have been here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5668651,-...6384!8i8192 here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5674139,-...6384!8i8192 or here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5679638,-...6384!8i8192

Write a draft and post it on here and we will tidy it up for you.
stamfordman
This zone is not enforced during Spurs games CP. They have made a mistake. Of that I'm pretty sure.
cp8759
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 28 Jun 2022 - 15:39) *
This zone is not enforced during Spurs games CP. They have made a mistake. Of that I'm pretty sure.

I don't doubt it. Will make it extra difficult for them to prove that they had the appropriate signage in place.
jst0l
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 28 Jun 2022 - 15:25) *
Exactly where did you enter the CPZ?

As far as I can tell it must have been here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5668651,-...6384!8i8192 here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5674139,-...6384!8i8192 or here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5679638,-...6384!8i8192

Write a draft and post it on here and we will tidy it up for you.



I'm confident we came up Perth Road to get to where we parked, i.e. your third link above, having approached from the north-west. Honestly can't say I noticed the entry board (and thus what it said on it). The photographic evidence from the PCN only includes the car and the sign right next to the car (which didn't specify if it was an event day or not).

Will draft something up now. The Notice to Owner appears very clear that I only have 28 days to lodge a representation - do I definitely have longer than this (as per an above post) due to the letter being issued on the Wednesday before the double bank holiday (so we would have only received it Monday I think)?
jst0l
How about something like this:

--------


Dear Sir or Madam,

On the 20th March 2022 I received a PCN for the reason of

• 12®: Parked in a residents` or shared use parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place where required, or without payment of the parking charge (resident`s bay)

I would like to make a representation on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur.

My vehicle was parked on Sunday 20 March 2022 on Oxford Road, N4, next to a sign that stated parking was restricted Mon-Sat 830am-630pm, or on "match and event days" Mon-Sat 830am, and Sundays/public holidays Noon-430pm. I therefore checked on the Haringey website to determine if any matches or events were taking place.

I learned that I was in the Finsbury Park CPZ, which has additional restrictions only on Arsenal Match Day and Finsbury Park Event days, as stated here: https://www.haringey.gov.uk/parking-roads-a...rk-b-and-c-cpzs . As per my informal appeal, there was no Arsenal match taking place that day, nor were there any events in Finsbury Park.

The rejection to the informal appeal stated that "On the day of the contravention there was football match taking place at Tottenham stadium, Tottenham Hot Spurs were playing West Ham United. Parking is restricted on Sunday between noon to 4.30pm on event days. There are time plates located at the entry point into the control parking zone (CPZ), informing residents / motorist when there is an event taken place and event day restrictions apply. We have considered the circumstance put forward, however we are unable to cancel this PCN."

Where I parked clearly does not form part of the CPZ covering the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, whilst you have provided no evidence of time plates located at my entry point into the CPZ (which was on Perth Road)

I therefore look forward to receiving confirmation that the PCN has been cancelled.

Yours faithfully,
cp8759
That gets the key points in.
stamfordman
I'd be tempted just to make it short and sweet:

I am making representations against the PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.

The zone I was parked in (zone xx) was not subject to a Tottenham Hotspur event restriction on that day, which your rejection of my informal challenge alleges.

It cannot be so as that zone is only subject to events at Arsenal and Finsbury Park as your CPZ map confirms.

I look forward to your confirmation of cancellation of this PCN, which has been wrongly served.
jst0l
Many thanks both, I submitted something last night. Fingers crossed.
jst0l
Appeal rejected! See below




The grounds for rejection seem somewhat laughable. The CPZ map explicitly states the area I parked in as having additional restrictions for "Arsenal Match Day and Finsbury Park Event Days only". Haringey CPZ
I don't see how Haringey could win this, unless their approach is just designed to get people to pay up because they're worried about the tribunals process.

I'm unfamiliar with what to do next. I'll complete the tribunals form, but should there be anything specific I highlight as part of my case? I guess Haringey will drop before it actually comes before a tribunal but who knows
cp8759
Forget about the forms, file the appeal online at https://londontribunals.org.uk/ with "I rely on my formal representations", request a personal hearing and let us know when you have a time and date. You don't actually need to provide any evidence at this stage, that will come later if the council decides to fight the case.
stamfordman
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 15 Jul 2022 - 14:44) *
Forget about the forms, file the appeal online at https://londontribunals.org.uk/ with "I rely on my formal representations", request a personal hearing and let us know when you have a time and date. You don't actually need to provide any evidence at this stage, that will come later if the council decides to fight the case.


+1

That's one of the most bonkers rejections I've seen and totally ignores their own web page on the zone.

I'd say the appeal is a back of the net win but I doubt they'll contest.
jst0l
Thanks both, nice and straightforward, let's wait and see
jst0l
Ugh this is starting to get annoying. Appeal rejected though not sure why- I registered it within a day of receiving the original rejection from Haringey. Not sure what has gone on here!

PASTMYBEST
It looks to be an error, send them a copy of the notice of rejection along with a request that the decision is reconsidered in light of the clear evidence that the appeal was in time
cp8759
what's the verification code printed on the Notice of Rejection? Should be 89G213
stamfordman
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 23 Jul 2022 - 10:25) *
what's the verification code printed on the Notice of Rejection? Should be 89G213


Yes - could be you entered wrong code or Haringey has given you a wrong code. It will get sorted.
cp8759
You can't enter the wrong code as it's got a validation digit, you'd have to get two digits wrong and you'd only have a 1 in 11 chance of entering a valid combination. I think we've seen another invalid Haringey code in the past few weeks, and if that was the issue I think it's further ammunition to use in the appeal.
stamfordman
Another case where the was a mess with Haringey:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=129039
jst0l
Verification code in letter of rejection was 88E214
stamfordman
QUOTE (jst0l @ Sat, 23 Jul 2022 - 11:34) *
Verification code in letter of rejection was 88E214


I don't know where CP got the other code from but I expect all you have to do is use that and ignore the letter you have as it presumable relates to a now closed case.
cp8759
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 23 Jul 2022 - 11:53) *
QUOTE (jst0l @ Sat, 23 Jul 2022 - 11:34) *
Verification code in letter of rejection was 88E214

I don't know where CP got the other code from but I expect all you have to do is use that and ignore the letter you have as it presumable relates to a now closed case.

You must have missed all the fun and games we had in this discussion http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=144917

QUOTE (jst0l @ Sat, 23 Jul 2022 - 11:34) *
Verification code in letter of rejection was 88E214

That's a code for May 2022, so they've given you the wrong code. Re-register the appeal using code 89G213 and it should go through.
jst0l
Re-registered my appeal under the new code (and added a note to the old appeal explaining what I have done).
Pretty egregious behaviour from the council if intentional!
cp8759
Upload a copy of the Notice of Rejection to the new appeal (no redactions obviously).
jst0l
Have got an in-person hearing now scheduled for 22 August.
Should I be submitting evidence beforehand? And should this simply comprise screenshots making it clear the zone I parked in was an Arsenal zone not a Spurs zone?!
cp8759
Have you uploaded a copy of the Notice of Rejection?

And has the council uploaded anything in response?
jst0l
Yup, Notice of Rejection has been uploaded.
Nothing from the council thus far.
When does evidence need to be uploaded by? I think I read 5 days' beforehand? Though not sure if that is working days?
cp8759
QUOTE (jst0l @ Wed, 10 Aug 2022 - 16:56) *
When does evidence need to be uploaded by? I think I read 5 days' beforehand? Though not sure if that is working days?

Forget about the notices from the tribunal, they're all templated letters anyway. Until the council uploads its evidence, you don't need to do anything at all. No council evidence means an automatic win.

If the council tried playing silly games and submits its evidence at the last minute, you can get an adjournment which in practice is always granted.

For now the only thing you need to do is keep checking the tribunal portal once a week, in the last 10 days before the hearing check every day. If the council uploads any evidence, let us know and if it's in the last 10 days, drop me a PM as well.
jst0l
Many thanks, will keep checking
I don't suppose the fact I changed the verification code (to enable the appeal in the first place) would prevent the council identifying the case, submitting their (flimsy) "evidence"?
cp8759
QUOTE (jst0l @ Wed, 10 Aug 2022 - 17:31) *
Many thanks, will keep checking
I don't suppose the fact I changed the verification code (to enable the appeal in the first place) would prevent the council identifying the case, submitting their (flimsy) "evidence"?

I doubt it, they have a council login that brings up all their cases.
jst0l
"Do not contest" form has been uploaded from Haringey. I assume this is good news?!
If so many thanks for the help with this one. Justice is served.
stamfordman
QUOTE (jst0l @ Tue, 16 Aug 2022 - 22:40) *
"Do not contest" form has been uploaded from Haringey. I assume this is good news?!
If so many thanks for the help with this one. Justice is served.


I said they wouldn't contest. I would send a complaint to the council.
cp8759
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 16 Aug 2022 - 23:32) *
QUOTE (jst0l @ Tue, 16 Aug 2022 - 22:40) *
"Do not contest" form has been uploaded from Haringey. I assume this is good news?!
If so many thanks for the help with this one. Justice is served.


I said they wouldn't contest. I would send a complaint to the council.

So would I. From prior experience a stage 1 complaint will get a fob-off response and you'll have to take it to stage 2 to get a sensible response.
jst0l
Thank you, I will do - albeit not expecting it to achieve much...!
Assuming the hearing won't exist now, i.e. I don't need to turn up next week?
stamfordman
QUOTE (jst0l @ Wed, 17 Aug 2022 - 08:44) *
Thank you, I will do - albeit not expecting it to achieve much...!
Assuming the hearing won't exist now, i.e. I don't need to turn up next week?


You should get a letter confirming this.
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