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blackheathbaggie
Hi i'm new to this board, I passed my test on 13th January 2006, I work as a refrigeration engineer and have driven over 90000 miles in my first 23 months of driving I have 3 points on my license when I got caught in the dreaded North Wales doing 37 in a 30, I accepted the fixed points at the time, I have really tried to drive sensibly but doing all the miles I do its very hard. To my horror this morning my Manager phoned to say that I have had a notice for doing 35 in a 30 in Shrewsbury, Shropshire. I am worried because this means I will have 6 points and as i'm still a month away from my first 2 years lose my license, my job etc etc. The road I was on goes from a 40 down to a 30 and I really can't remember seeing a camara or the incident but it was on the 4th December and the work say I was in the area on that day so i'm sure it was me. is there anyway out of this mess?? What do i do next as I can't accept the fixed notice. Thanks in advance Chris.
mrdc
QUOTE (blackheathbaggie @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 12:47) *
Hi i'm new to this board, I passed my test on 13th January 2006, I work as a refrigewration engineer and have driven over 90000 miles in my first 23 months of driving I have 3 points on my license when I got caught in the dreaded North Wales doing 37 in a 30, I accepted the fixed points at the time, I have really tried to drive sensibly but doing all the miles I do its very hard. To my horror this morning my Manager phoned to say that I have had a notice for doing 35 in a 30 in Shrewsbury, Shropshire. I am worried because this means I will have 6 points and as i'm still a month away from my first 2 years lose my license, my job etc etc. The road I was on goes from a 40 down to a 30 and I really can't remember seeing a camara or the incident but it was on the 4th December and the work say I was in the area on that day so i'm sure it was me. is there anyway out of this mess?? What do i do next as I can't accept the fixed notice. Thanks in advance Chris.


I would wait until the NIP comes through to yourself. At the speed you were caught at you might be offered a speed awareness course thar would mean no points.
den23621
http://www.speedaware.org.uk/faq.aspx#top HAVE A QUICK ON THIS SITE IT MAY HELP YOU .
mob
QUOTE (mrdc @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 12:55) *
I would wait until the NIP comes through to yourself. At the speed you were caught at you might be offered a speed awareness course thar would mean no points.


West Mercia don't offer a speed awareness course unfortunatly.

I would ask the boss to reply as late as possible to the NIP then post back here when you have one in your own name.

In the mean time have a good read round and when you do get a NIP please complete the NIP wizard.
jdfi
QUOTE (blackheathbaggie @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 12:47) *
Hi i'm new to this board, I passed my test on 13th January 2006


Can the others clarify - is it the date of the alleged speeding offence that matters, or the date of conviction/endorsement?

i.e. if the OP elects to go to court which wouldn't occur until Summer, and maybe gets guilty, 3pts, £300 fine - would he get to keep his licence?
The Rookie
Date of offence....so no help at all....

Simon
davepoth
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 14:07) *
Date of offence....so no help at all....

Simon


Maybe, maybe not.

There may be some mileage in just not replying to the NIP and pleading guilty to a S.172.

Even though it will be 6 points, I would think the date of the S.172 will be well after the 2 year period for new drivers expires, which would mean you would still be driving, albeit with 9 points...
blackheathbaggie
That may be something to look at, if it is taken to court is the 3 points a minimum? or can the courts decide to add less points because of the fact that i would lose my job and prob my house etc? I know the road well and genuinley can't remember seeing a speed camara there and am wondering if I was slowing down from the 40 zone to the 30 zone, I find it very sneeky of the police to put a van there as driver have to slow if this is the case. My work have checked the Tracker and do have me doing 41mph on that road but as i've said there's a 40 and 30 zones on the same stretch. can I find out where exactly there van was parked then i can check my speed against the tracker?
jdfi
QUOTE (blackheathbaggie @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 12:47) *
I really can't remember seeing a camara or the incident but it was on the 4th December and the work say I was in the area on that day so i'm sure it was me. is there anyway out of this mess??

Lets try to think about this in the way that a solicitor might.

Your comment "work say i was in the area so i'm sure it was me" - that suggests to me that you don't always drive the same van. How much do you trust your manager/key administrator?

How many people are there in your team (i.e. pool of employees who had access to the pool of vans)? What is the likelihood that two of your companies' vans were in the area on the same day?

You've said to us that you know the road goes 40 down to 30 - that suggests to me that (especially because your licence is at risk) that you saw the change in speed, and braked accordingly.

Remember you're not the driver keeper, so no reasonable dilligence, you just have to give information within your power to give. That could be something like

"I drive as an engineer for XX Ltd. I get sent on various jobs by management, these jobs are usually logged, but I can choose my own routes. Whilst I drove on the alleged road on or around the day in question, I cannot be sure that I was driving AB51 CDE. The reason for this is that whilst vehicles are usually allocated on the roster sheet, if a vehicle is blocked in we just swop for another set of keys. I drive on this road often, and I am aware of the speed limit change. Being the good driver that I am, I slowed accordingly. I can therefore confidently say that I was not driving a speeding vehicle at the given location on the given date. Yours faithfully".

Re the idea of admitting s.172 instead, weigh up the cost of extra insurance over the four years the points will be on, against the cost (and lost wages) of resitting the test. Bear in mind though that when on 9 points, there really are no more chances, like a cat with nine lives!
7159keith
Do not try to say it was not you unless you have genuine doubt otherwise a ban will be the least of your worries. The alternatives are :

1. Accept CoFP and you are banned.
2. Fight and lose you are banned.
3. Go to court then change your plea and offer mitigation, a real lottery and a strong possibility of a ban.
4. Davepoths idea, go for a S172 conviction and six points. No ban but nine points to live with.

Other members may have better suggestions but it may be that Davepoth is right. If your boss returns the NIP back end of next week you should be safe enough as the S172 offence would be deemed to have been commited 28 days after the date of your NIP.

Rock and a hard place. You have my sympathies.
blackheathbaggie
I was actually driving the spare van which is available to about 15/16 people but as my van was having its brakes fixed I didn't pick it up till early afternoon and the speeding offence was in the morning. The manager and 1 of the other office staff have checked and they reckon it was definetely me driving. I don't really trust my manager which is why I asked another member of staff to check. No other vans were in the area at that point and i'm not sure my work would say that they were. My twin brother (identical) has offered to take the points for me but I don't want to do this as it could be both our licenses if were found out.
7159keith
Do not even contemplate the twin brother route, that is prison for both.

You still have not done the NIP wizard but if you know you were driving that van pm and the offence was am then you are not guilty and must say so. How do you know you were not driving in the morning?

Do the NIP wizard as requested so members can see the exact details of the offence.

blackheathbaggie
Sorry i may have confused you, I know I was driving AM, and wasn't PM. Guess i'll have to get my boss to stall sending it back and wait for my NIP.
7159keith
Of course, you have no NIP yet!!! When you get a NIP of your own post on here.
leegomery16
Which road in Shrewsbury was it?
The Rookie
QUOTE (blackheathbaggie @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 15:56) *
I was actually driving the spare van which is available to about 15/16 people but as my van was having its brakes fixed I didn't pick it up till early afternoon and the speeding offence was in the morning. The manager and 1 of the other office staff have checked and they reckon it was definetely me driving. I don't really trust my manager which is why I asked another member of staff to check. No other vans were in the area at that point and i'm not sure my work would say that they were. My twin brother (identical) has offered to take the points for me but I don't want to do this as it could be both our licenses if were found out.


To be clear, do you think you were driving the van in question at the time or not as you seem to be going round in circles...

Conspiracy to pervert the course of justice won't loose you licence but could loose you your liberty as its carries a MANDATORY jail term.

It would appear any S172 offence would occur outside your probation period so that would give you 9 points and you would have to be a saint for a few years....

The magistrates can't give less than 3 points unless you are found not guilty or have a special reason not to endorse - which nothing you have said suggests you would have.

Simon
blackheathbaggie
QUOTE (leegomery16 @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 17:12) *
Which road in Shrewsbury was it?


It was the London Rd. I have never seen a camera there but have seen the signs which is why i try and be careful there(obviously not careful enough).
blackheathbaggie
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 17:40) *
QUOTE (blackheathbaggie @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 15:56) *
I was actually driving the spare van which is available to about 15/16 people but as my van was having its brakes fixed I didn't pick it up till early afternoon and the speeding offence was in the morning. The manager and 1 of the other office staff have checked and they reckon it was definetely me driving. I don't really trust my manager which is why I asked another member of staff to check. No other vans were in the area at that point and i'm not sure my work would say that they were. My twin brother (identical) has offered to take the points for me but I don't want to do this as it could be both our licenses if were found out.


To be clear, do you think you were driving the van in question at the time or not as you seem to be going round in circles...

Conspiracy to pervert the course of justice won't loose you licence but could loose you your liberty as its carries a MANDATORY jail term.

It would appear any S172 offence would occur outside your probation period so that would give you 9 points and you would have to be a saint for a few years....

The magistrates can't give less than 3 points unless you are found not guilty or have a special reason not to endorse - which nothing you have said suggests you would have.

Simon




I am 90% sure that I was driving, but that 10% doesn't half make you think. I think the S172 solution sounds the best but I hope it won't backfire on me.
nemo
QUOTE (blackheathbaggie @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 18:14) *
I think the S172 solution sounds the best but I hope it won't backfire on me.

Its ultimately your choice which route you take, but bear in mind that ignoring the s.172 notice would (probably) see you convicted and leave you on 9 points for the next 3 years - ie whilst your licence would not be revoked, you would be one more Endorsable Fixed Penalty away from a 6 month ban. Not to mention higher higher insurance premiums for the next 5 years as a result of a s.172 conviction..

Have you looked into the current waiting time for tests at your local test centres ? Would a relatively short duration licence revocation be terminal to your job ? Don't forget to factor in the time required to apply for (and receive) a new provisional licence..
leegomery16
QUOTE (blackheathbaggie @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 18:12) *
QUOTE (leegomery16 @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 17:12) *
Which road in Shrewsbury was it?


It was the London Rd. I have never seen a camera there but have seen the signs which is why i try and be careful there(obviously not careful enough).


Ah, yes, near to Shrewsbury College?

They like to hide the little white van there.

Perverting the course of public justice doesn't carry a mandatory sentence of imprisonment but it's unusual not to be imprisoned for it. That's not an endorsement to do it by the way.
blackheathbaggie
Just read on the section172 that if my company doesn't provide a named driver then the company and not any individual gets prosecuted is this true? because if my boss 'didn't know' who was driving then the company would get a fine (which i would pay)and nobody would get points as I understand it, may be another way around the whole mess for me.
leegomery16
No, no, NO! That is perverting the course of justice and each of you could go to prison!
blackheathbaggie
QUOTE (leegomery16 @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 22:08) *
No, no, NO! That is perverting the course of justice and each of you could go to prison!



Ok bad idea, its just that i'm desperate, all may be better on Monday when I go to the office, my Boss may even offer to find me other work till i'm re-passed. I'm pretty sure that the 6 points in 2 years law wasn't mean't to penalise people of my age (i'm 35 no boy racer) but the way they have introduced the law it isn't the courts that ban me, its the DVLA. So if i'm guilty then i'm in deep ****. At least i'm very cofident that i'll re-pass in no time at all after all i've had 90,000 miles of practice.
The Rookie
To correct leegomery, your boss could decline to name the driver (by ignoring the S172 request) and thus the company be guilty of the S172 offence, that is NOT perverting the course of justice at all, its only if they tried to claim they didn't know or tried to name the wrong person would it be attempting to pervert.....

Simon
andy_foster
With Simon on this.
Not that we would procure anyone to deliberately commit a criminal offence (even by omission), but if your boss were to fail to respond to the NIP/s. 172, the company would receive a fine (typically ~£600) and no points.

If your boss were to lie in response to a statutory requirement to provide information, rather than simply ignoring the notice, that would be an offence contrary to s. 5 Perjury Act 1911, and an attempt to pervert the course of public justice.
If he simply does not respond, the 'course of public justice' is that the company would face a fine as prescribed by Parliament.
leegomery16
Might I point out s. 172(5)?

Where a body corporate is guilty of an offence under this section and the offence is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to neglect on the part of, a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate, or a person who was purporting to act in any such capacity, he, as well as the body corporate, is guilty of that offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.

Is your boss willing to take a fine and 6 points for you?
andy_foster
Don't get points for s. 172(5).
The Rookie
With AF, that is the standard section for corporate bodies, and no points.....

Simon
leegomery16
I can't see anything that exempts a company officer from the points. A company obviously cannot be given points as it does not have a licence but an officer of that company can. Obviously I'm missing something.
andy_foster
The penalties for motoring offences are prescribed by Schedule 2 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.

Endorsement for s. 172 offences is obligatory if committed otherwise than by virtue of subsection (5) or (11).

I can't see many employers being up for such a plan, but IMHO that's between the OP and his boss.
leegomery16
Ah good, that's what I couldn't find.

Is the boss willing to take a fine for you then?
jdfi
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 17:40) *
QUOTE (blackheathbaggie @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 15:56) *
I was actually driving the spare van which is available to about 15/16 people but as my van was having its brakes fixed I didn't pick it up till early afternoon and the speeding offence was in the morning. The manager and 1 of the other office staff have checked and they reckon it was definetely me driving. I don't really trust my manager which is why I asked another member of staff to check. No other vans were in the area at that point and i'm not sure my work would say that they were. My twin brother (identical) has offered to take the points for me but I don't want to do this as it could be both our licenses if were found out.


To be clear, do you think you were driving the van in question at the time or not as you seem to be going round in circles...


Lads, I think we're going round in circles, and debating lots of inventive ideas to commit purgery.

Baggie - was the van that was flashed by the camera your own regular van, or was it the spare van? If it was your regular van (maybe during/after having the brakes repaired) could it have been driven by a mechanic? If the spare van, could another colleague have been driving it also?

Even if your company thinks you were the driver (and name you) then if you believe this to be incorrect then you can give "information in your power to give" to explain either that it wasn't you, or that there was doubt.

After all, many managers/fleet departments/HR wouldn't even discuss the alleged offence with their employer, and the first you could know would be when your personal NIP hits the doormat (early/mid Jan I would think).

In my opinion, it would be quite easy to ensure that no motorist/company get a fine or points for this, purely because of the ambiguities that baggie has mentioned.

Remember this isn't conviction on the balance of probabilities, this is beyond reasonable doubt.

Baggie - if you did do it, maybe you remember being flashed by the camera but don't want to say - then do the decent thing and be honest and play it straight. Take the points and do the retest - if they try to sack you then I can point you in the right direction of a good employment advice forum.

However if you didn't, or you're not sure either way - then don't take the fall for another man, its not worth it. No matter how convinced your boss is that you had the keys to van X on the day in question.
jdfi
QUOTE (leegomery16 @ Sun, 16 Dec 2007 - 18:41) *
Ah good, that's what I couldn't find.

Is the boss willing to take a fine for you then?


I think the insinuation was that the Ltd Co would get fined, and baggy would reimburse, in return for his name being kept out of it. Totally unnecessary.... but not purjury I don't think?

However if the fleet manager is unable to name anyone, and can show why that was reasonable (things like spare van in yard for use when other vans faulty/being serviced, keys just hung up in office so that anyone can take the van to get to a customer) - then no fine to the company.

QUOTE (7159keith @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 15:48) *
Do not try to say it was not you unless you have genuine doubt otherwise a ban will be the least of your worries.


I wasn't advocating lying - I was merely pointing out that all the evidence (or lack of) should be considered.
7159keith
Surely any attempt by the company to withhold information is conspiracy to pervert?

From an employment point of view, it is not a good career move to try to get you remployer to "assist" these things get complicated very quickly and you need them on your side at the moment.

As an employer, if you worked for me and were one of the good guys I would support you during the short ban period and any good employer would do the same. Do you think your employer would be supportive? Why not ask and then take the pain, in the long run it may be simpler.
The Rookie
There is no pervertion if the Boss decides to decline to answer at all, he is breaking a law, and will be punished for that, any pervertion/perjury would occure if he said something untrue, to excercise his right to silence is not doing that - its pretty clear to me...

Simon
blackheathbaggie
Can you get legal aid for speeding offences?? as i'm thinking of getting legal advice at a later date for this.

davepoth
In a word, no.
Hotel Oscar 87
I understand the direction in which the discussion has gone but we really need to keep in mind the "lurkers" on here. There are unlikely to have been too many people detected doing 37 in a 30 in Shrewsbury on the day in question (with the same, openly discussed background) and there must be a chance that a print-out of this post will be sitting on the desk of the "decision-maker" for that area to compare with incoming replies. This too, I suggest, must be borne in mind when formulating a reply.
blackheathbaggie
The reason why i'm asking is that my work has my tracker report and it states I was doing no more than 1.6mph over th speed limit and while i was over the limit I was'nt 5mph over. So looks like it'll be going to court but want to make sure i'm doing the right thing.

Hotel Oscar 87
BHB

Is that your tracker or the tracker in the vehicle in question?
blackheathbaggie
the tracker is in the vehicle
jdfi
Baggie, can you reply to my message of Monday so that I can try to help you further.

If you don't want to reply on the forum, please PM me.

As I said, there appears to be some ambiguity over which vehicle you were actually driving on the day - people will help you with this if they can.

Also clarify which vehicle is fitted with the tracker that you're referring to please.
blackheathbaggie
I was driving the Vehicle that was clocked speeding (i've checked all avenues and it seems it was def me driving). the tracker is fitted to the vehicle that was on the NIP and it shows on the tracker report that I was 1.6MPH over the speed limit not the 5mph that was stated on the NIP. This maybe explains why I didn't remember the incident as I often drive on the speed limit and often breathe a sigh of relief when I go past a camera van and look down and realise i'm ok (only 1 to 3 mph over the limit max as i've always believed that to be ok). That is why I was thinking of getting legal advice, If I was only 1.6mph over the limit and the NIP says 5mph then surely there camara either isn't calibrated or god forbid is fixed? Any help is obviously appreciated but I won't get my own NIP until January as my work hasn't sent there NIP back yet.
jdfi
Baggie, make sure you get the solicitors advice on taking the 6 points for s.172 dated in Feb 2008 as opposed to 3 points for SP30 dated dec 2007.

If you can succeed with your defence based on the tracker results then that would be brilliant, again please let us know the solicitors' thoughts.
Barking Mad
QUOTE (blackheathbaggie @ Fri, 14 Dec 2007 - 12:47) *
Hi i'm new to this board, I passed my test on 13th January 2006, I work as a refrigeration engineer and have driven over 90000 miles in my first 23 months of driving I have 3 points on my license when I got caught in the dreaded North Wales doing 37 in a 30, I accepted the fixed points at the time, I have really tried to drive sensibly but doing all the miles I do its very hard. To my horror this morning my Manager phoned to say that I have had a notice for doing 35 in a 30 in Shrewsbury, Shropshire. I am worried because this means I will have 6 points and as i'm still a month away from my first 2 years lose my license, my job etc etc. The road I was on goes from a 40 down to a 30 and I really can't remember seeing a camara or the incident but it was on the 4th December and the work say I was in the area on that day so i'm sure it was me. is there anyway out of this mess?? What do i do next as I can't accept the fixed notice. Thanks in advance Chris.


I have a different suggestion with regard to the way to play this.

Do not return the NIP to say it was you driving until the very last day that they could lay information at the court (ie 183 days / 6 months from the date of the offence). edited to add From the date of the SPEEDING OFFENCE

You're going to get done either way for this

BUT, IMHO, because you can point to the draconian sanction of the punishment which would otherwise be coming your way (namely a ban), you might argue that you named yourself "as soon as practicably possible" given the way the various laws are drafted.

This is all bad law: Being faced with the choice between getting banned for having a total of 6 points sooner or a total of 9 points later for an offence of some 5 mph, even if they are absolutely correct - is very, very wrong.

The law is an ass and is being administered by people who are basically thieves by another name and modern day gangsters.

I hope the labour party are enjoying being in power and taking lots of memoriy keep-safes and pictures of them as ministers because they are going to spend a fucking long time on the opposition benches!

I was born in a solid Labour constituency which has the serious possibility of falling to the BNP at the next general election - and as a natural Labour voter, I am telling all of you I can't wait to go and vote tory at the next election! I never, ever, ever thought I would ever think such a thing. Let alone put it in writing on an open forum like this.

The country needs to change the government. I am a socialist and I believe in equitable fair taxation. Not thieving off the masses!
blackheathbaggie
Hi board been a while and still no NIP although i'm not even sure if my work has sent back the original NIP yet, anyway i've been down the same road today and guess what? A scamvan was parked up filming what appeared to be the vehicles slowing from the 40 zone to the 30 where the camera signs start. Now correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't the camera operator have to make a prior opinion that the vehicle approaching is speeding before scanning? If the answer is yes then how can he make the assumtion when a vehicle is in the 40 zone that it will be speeding when it is in the 30 zone? To do this I will need all the film from the police camera, how easy is it to get and do you reckon this is a decnt defence.
I think i might take this as far a I can when I finally get my prosecution as it seems like they're not following there own laws or don't even know there own laws.
Glacier2
Baggie, hang tight until you receive your own NIP.
davidson
How you know the scamvan was parked filming and not parked eating his sandwiches? Secondly where the van was parked today may not be where it was parked when you got zapped. Thirdly 6 points in 1st two years is not a ban . Its retake tests and as soon as passed back on the road.
blackheathbaggie
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - December 2007
Date of the NIP: - 38 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 39 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A5064 London Rd t'wrds Shrewsbury
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Works vehicle
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - The first I heard of this was when my company informed me they had recieved an NIP and in there opinion I was driving, it is the spare van that was flashed speeding and although I do know I was driving the van that day am not 100% sure I was the one driving, if not myself I do not know who else had access to the vehicle that day. I know the road well and am very careful not to speed so am very doubtful that I was speeding that in that road, I can't remember seeing any vans in the Shrewsbury area on that day.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:48:29 +0000
Hotel Oscar 87
Hi again BHB

Davidson is correct in that you have not strictly been banned but the revocation of your licence has the same basic effect. It means you start again as if you did not have a driving licence at all - which means that if you had, for example, also passed your m/c test then you lose the entitlement to that too.

The procedure to get a licence back, re-applying for a provisional, passing the theory and practical tests again (and having to be accompanied during this period) could conceivably be done in 4-6 weeks (strangely similar to the effect of a short-term ban) but are likely to take more like 12 weeks or so. And, BTW - the points follow you onto your new licence. The only real saving grace is that if you foul up again and collect 6 more points they can't revoke your licence for a second time but then you are quite likely to be "totting-up".

I'd go for the short-term ban every time. Its a real b*ggeration but at least you get to keep the licence without added points.
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