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blackheathbaggie
Yes they are 30MPH but this would mean that you could turn left or right and not know that a speed camera could be filming you, i know you don't need a extra 30mph sign but surely you need to know that as you enter the road there may be speed camera's on there? maybe i'm being to nieve.
leegomery16
I'm afraid you are, yes wink.gif
blackheathbaggie
So basically the local Authority/Police can put a speed camera sign at a start of a speed limit and even if you join that road further up the road and there are no camera signs showing you could still get caught for speeding by one of there vans? If thats the case then thats scandalous, you could turn any street corner in this country not knowing the area and be filmed without out any warning. This goverment will do anything to get a few quid of us motorists.
leegomery16
Well, I think the idea is that if you break the law you run the risk of being caught. The police don't put up signs warning burglars that they're out looking for them do they?

None of this should be taken as meaning I agree with the way speed enforcement is carried out or the great lengths that the authorities will go to in order to convict people of what is, at the end of the day, a petty offence. I do however have difficulty with the line of resasoning that supposes you should be warned of enforcement action.

I must say your thread has made me very cautious when I drive along that road though!
blackheathbaggie
I can see your point on the warning signs but if there is no need for camera warning signs then why do they put them up full stop? there must be some legislation about signage or they wouldn't do it a lot of other authorities put them up at every junction entering the camera zone why? if theres no need.
Glad your being careful because from what I can make out from the Photo i've recieved they were hiding behind the bush when filming me and got me from behind, i'll never prove this though without the full film which i'll be unlikely ever to get.
leegomery16
The signs are put up for deterrent effect. In other words, people see the signs and slow down in case there's a camera about. There's no requirement for the signs to be placed for enforcement to take place.

Every time I've seen a van parked there it's been on the left hand bend as you're heading towards the Column Roundabout.
blackheathbaggie
they film from front and the back of the van, they have gotten the van that i drive from behind but from what i can work out I was going around that bend at the time meaning that they must have been parked on the left as you enter the 30zone towards Shrewsbury with a great big 30 foot high hedge there so you wouldn't see the van unless you was very vigulent.
leegomery16
Yeah...wonder why they pick that spot? wink.gif
blackheathbaggie
Ok an update, I had a letter from the scammers dated 7th April saying that because they are not in reciept of my licence or payment the matter was now being passed to the magistrates court. So a quick question, how long am I know looking at till i get a court date? and do i need to do anything regards obtaining there evidence yet? Thanks in advance.
andy_foster
Varies from area to area, but I'd guess at 2 months for service of the summons and another 2 weeks until the first hearing (plea) date.

The CPS do not get involved until a not guilty plea has been entered (at the first hearing date). They are then required to perform primary disclosure as soon as is reasonably practicable.
The proper procedures for requesting disclosure only apply after the prosecution has purported to perform primary disclosure.
blackheathbaggie
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 14 Apr 2008 - 01:34) *
Varies from area to area, but I'd guess at 2 months for service of the summons and another 2 weeks until the first hearing (plea) date.

The CPS do not get involved until a not guilty plea has been entered (at the first hearing date). They are then required to perform primary disclosure as soon as is reasonably practicable.
The proper procedures for requesting disclosure only apply after the prosecution has purported to perform primary disclosure.



Thanks Andy, what is a Primary disclosure if you don't mind me asking?
The Rookie
Them disclosing what they intend to rely on in court, usually just the operators statement and a single photo.

Simon
blackheathbaggie
An update on my case, I have now recieved a summons from the scammers for next month, it says that if i'm pleading Not guilty I haven't got to attend on that day as a further date will be set. There is 2 signed witness statements and the photo's that I already recieved from them again. Also a copy of mine and my works NIP's. Now the summons says I need to send my driving licence to them but do I have to do this before the pre-trial hearing or when the proper trial date is set? Also when do I ask for there tape of the alleged offence and who do I ask ( the courts or the CPS)?

The Rookie
You only have to supply it if pleading guilty, or after being found guilty - not before the evmnt if you intend to be there on the day!

Simon
blackheathbaggie
Cheers Rookie, Am I now at the stage where I need to obtain there Video of my alleged speeding? or do i have to wait for a date for trial 1st? And also who do I ask for the video evidence the CPS or the Police?
The Rookie
Your only entitled to ask for any evidence once you have been summonsed and your not guilty plea has been entered at teh first hearing, then its best to do it using a compliant defence statement.

Simon
blackheathbaggie
I've managed to get in touch with a friend of mine who works for a solicitor and he reckons that if its proved that i was speeding (or as he says i can't prove I wasn't, cuz in his words the 'laws an ass in these cases') that he has known many cases where the offender has gotten away with having there licence revolked because they have particular hardships ie- losing there job, disabled family members who rely on them or needing there licences to do thee voluntary work.
Now if i can't prove that I wasn't speeding I have all of these to be considered, my son has a serious condition which requires hospital visits (although not as regulary since his last op) and i am the only member of the family who can take my father places as he has a serious heart condition and cannot walk far, I WILL lose my job and i am a member of my estate commitee who helps out in the local community which often involves me driving to meetings and events. Will this help me? and at what point will i need to let the court know of these curcumstances if they will?

The Rookie
If you get to 6 points there is nothing the magistrates can do to prevent your licence being revoked....its an adminastrative thing by DVLA

The only ways to avoid three points are
1/ Be found not guilty
2/ plead guilty with special reasons not to endorse, but I really don't believe you qualify
3/ Get a short ban instead of the three points, this you can ask for if you plead guilty...and it has worked in the past if the circumstances are explained properly

Simon
blackheathbaggie
I've phoned the courts today as i've had no correspondance despite myself pleading NOT guilty by post and it being heard last week and the usher who I spoke to said ive got a pre-trial review booked for the start of August which i must attend. I've got 2 things on my mind which somebody may be able to help with. firstly, what is a pre-trial review, what do i need to do at one and do I need to prepare anything for it? Secondly, Am I know at a position to ask for there evidence (the film, certicates etc), if yes how do i get it all as i've had no correnspondance of the cps or court since the 1st hearing except my phone call?
andy_foster
You plead guilty and the case was adjourned for a pre-trial review?

A pre-trial review is a hearing to sort out trial issues. If you plead guilty there is no need for a trial.l
blackheathbaggie
Sorry Andy I mean't not Guilty.
blackheathbaggie
I still haven't recieved any conformation that i'm back in court in August off the Courts, CPS or anybody. Shouldn't they inform me and give me details of who to get the recording of my alledged speeding from? or is it a common thing to keep the accused in the dark?
The Rookie
The court will tell you the date, they won't tell you where to get any evidence from, the CPS will just disclose the evidence they wish to rely on and list unused evidence.

Simon
blackheathbaggie
Thanks Rookie, so how do I get the evidence? i've phoned the courts who have given me a number for the CPS, but how do i get the evidence (ie- film, certificates). I'm very confused at what to do next and when to do it? I really wanna do this myself just need pushing in the right direction.
southpaw82
You can write to them at:

Crown Prosecution Service
Lakeside House
Holsworth Park
Bicton Heath
Shrewsbury
Shropshire
SY3 5HJ

They're obliged to send you "primary disclosure" but you'll have to ask specifically for other stuff.
blackheathbaggie
Any idea's what I ask for? and how to put it in writing? are there any blank letter on here helping me?
The Rookie
You will have to enter a compliant defence statement stating why you believe you are NG, and specifying why you need what, I would suggest you start off asking for the full session video including start and end of shift checks...

Simon
blackheathbaggie
I've received all the paperwork off the CPS today including all the statments and evidence against me. I'm now going to write and ask for the full video (although in there letter it states that it'll have to be edited as it contains details of other offenders) and the start and end of shift checks (as advised by The Rookie thanks). Should i also ask for the calibration certificate? will this help? The letter states that if i supply a written defence statement it must comply with 'section 6A of the CPIA' but i'm not sure what that means? and finally are there any examples of defence statements that i can take a look at to give me a clue.
blackheathbaggie
Any advice gonna be offered on my last post? a bit of help wouldn't go a miss. thanks in advance.
bama
CPS doing their usual dance about full session video. the fact is it does NOT contain details of any other offenders, just details of vehicles. regardless of that there is a provision in the DPA that allows disclosure.

If you are going to fight for full session video you need to bone up on procedure, dislosure, compliant defense statements and the counters to the usual B.S reasons and arguments the CPS give.
By all means type up the relevant text the CPS used about the tape and post them. Or PM them.
The place for this is BB&G, I recommend joining.
blackheathbaggie
thanks for a reply barna, i am seriously thinking of joinin but don't have the cash till pay day at the end of the month (seriously I do live to a really tight budget, no spare cash). I have written to the scammers stating that i am pleading not guilty because I don't believe I was speeding, so there must be a fault with the recording equipment or the operating of it and asked for the video, certs etc etc.Will this count as a defence statement? Do they have to send me a copy of the Video? or can they arrange for me to go and view it at there convenience? Just wondering because seeing that I want to view the video as much a possible, I'd prefer a copy to be sent to me.
southpaw82
It may be that they refuse to disclose the video to you at all, or refuse to disclose it in any meaningful way. If that happens you'll have to apply for it.

What exactly are you trying to show by getting hold of the video?
blackheathbaggie
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 8 Jul 2008 - 23:51) *
It may be that they refuse to disclose the video to you at all, or refuse to disclose it in any meaningful way. If that happens you'll have to apply for it.

What exactly are you trying to show by getting hold of the video?



I'm trying to see exactly where the offence was meant to have taken place (its a long road with 3 different speed limits), also whether there equipment seems to have been used correctly (i'm no expert so i'm not 100% sure if i'll even know this but hope that there will be help available).
southpaw82
If they won't voluntarily give you the video then you'll need to submit a defence statement, as you've been advised. Simply saying "I want an expert to check it" will not cut it. You need to be able to demonstrate why the video will be of use to you and why you need an expert to check it. In other words, what makes you think it was not done correctly?

You're not allowed to go fishing for disclosure from the other side you have to be able to justify your reasons for asking for everything you want.
blackheathbaggie
I've tried to read up as much as possible and am considering going down the pleading guilty route (yet trying to get a short ban). I don't want to do this as I genuinely believe i wasn't speeding though I hardly recollect the alleged offence, I only remember driving in that area on that day and seeing what i thought was a surveyor doing a survey, i'm now guessing it may have been a Scammer but i clearly remember looking down at my speedo at that point and i was below the 30mph speed limit so am not sure if this was the moment, this is why i want to clarify the exact point i was filmed.I am struggling with the technicallities of the judicial process. I thought that i'd understand it easily but some of the things i've read just confuse me. I just wish I had the money for a good motoring solicitor but unfortunetley i can hardly feed myself and my family despite having a so called decently paid job, so this is out of the question.
blackheathbaggie
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 9 Jul 2008 - 00:03) *
If they won't voluntarily give you the video then you'll need to submit a defence statement, as you've been advised. Simply saying "I want an expert to check it" will not cut it. You need to be able to demonstrate why the video will be of use to you and why you need an expert to check it. In other words, what makes you think it was not done correctly?

You're not allowed to go fishing for disclosure from the other side you have to be able to justify your reasons for asking for everything you want.

But surely under the CPIA Act 1996, I can ask for it to assist my defence without explaining anything? or am I being naive? Also what does a defence statement consist of, as i really have no idea.
sharewatcher
The link below goes someway to explaining what a defence statement is

http://www.wikicrimeline.co.uk/index.php?t..._case_statement

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?...;filesize=13428
southpaw82
QUOTE (blackheathbaggie @ Wed, 9 Jul 2008 - 00:17) *
But surely under the CPIA Act 1996, I can ask for it to assist my defence without explaining anything?


Unfortunately not. The only things that have to be disclosed (from unused material) are those that may assist the defence or undermine the prosecution. The CPS will generally only know what will undermine the prosecution. If you don't tell them what your defence is and what information you need to support it and how it will support it they are under no obligation to disclose it to you as they will not know if it assist the defence or not.

Have a look here for an example defence statement.

I'm afraid you can't just ask and get - you have to give a good reason why.




blackheathbaggie
Ok i' in court tomorow for a pre-trial hearing and still no Video evidence recieved, I asked for a full copy of it and also asked for a copy of the calibration cert, copies of the start and end of shift checks, operators training certs, conformation that the camera is a type approved by the secretary of state and other documentation the prosecution intends to rely on in court. I recieved all the other documentation within a few days of requesting them and it states on there letter that they are requesting copy of the video from the police but i've still not recieved it. Do i phone the CPS and ask where my copy is? or do i phone the courts and explain the situation to them and ask them to advise them to disclose or do I just turn up tomorrow and advise the court in person of the situation? Quick advice would be appriciated.

blackheathbaggie
I have spoken to the CPS by phone who advised myself that i don't actually receive a copy of the recording but i get to view it in court tomorrow, is this allowed? surely i won't have time to assess the evidence (recording) when given a few minutes to see it before the court hearing.
jobo
you not acctuaky entitled to untill 7 days before the (real) Trial date

but what you must do it make sure that your request for it and why you need it is recorded at the pre trial , a sort of verbal defence statement( a writen one would be better)



id avoid seeing the video myselve as it cuts of your arguments about not having had access to prosicution evidence

just stand up go not guilty tell them in broard terms why and that you need to vid to build your defence

blackheathbaggie
Thanks Jobo
I've downloaded myself a copy of the LTI 20.20 operators manual and it states in it that it is recommended that the LTI 20.20 should have a check done at each enforcement period it is clear by the enorcment officer's log book that although he checked the equipment at an earlier location he didn't repeat the check at the location where i was alledgedlly speeding. I know this might be a technicality but is this something i might be able to use in my defence?
It also states that the to fixed points which vehicles speed may be recorded must be along the same line but the road in which i was alledgedly sppeding has a slight bend, is this also any use?
It also says that in accordance with current ACPO Code of Practice the equipment shouldn't be used through glass,, now i'm not sure that i was filmed through glass but have seen the vans in Shrewsbury doing this many many times, is this worth looking at.
Any help on these questions would be appreciated.
jobo
the bend issues is out

the other two could form part of a defence, particularly the failure to sync the lazer

its not just the guidlines the type aproval also forbids glass, but not as i inderstand it pollycarbanate ( Pete D TO COMMENT)


nON OF WHICH YOU NEED FOR THE PRETRIAL HEARING you believe there are significant missuse of the equipment and in order to prepare your defence you want

1 the operator in court

2 the full session video to shown the method of set up and operation
blackheathbaggie
May i ask why the bend issue is out?
jobo
1 they take your speed in a fraction of a second so the fact you on a bend makes not a hapeths of difference

there is guidance that they should not be more than 10% out from you direction though if they are it works in you favour

3 Dr science an extpert in all thing just lost a case with a gatso on a bend , if he cant argue successfully then no one else can,s,
blackheathbaggie
QUOTE (jobo @ Mon, 4 Aug 2008 - 17:30) *
the other two could form part of a defence, particularly the failure to sync the lazer
The laser was sync'd at an earlier location and again at the end of shift at a third location but at no point in his log does he state that he sync'd it at the location i was filmed.

QUOTE
nON OF WHICH YOU NEED FOR THE PRETRIAL HEARING you believe there are significant missuse of the equipment and in order to prepare your defence you want

1 the operator in court

2 the full session video to shown the method of set up and operation

Do i just tell them in court or am i better preparing a statement making a few copies and handing them to the magistrates and prosecution tomorrow. Do i also ask that the operator attend the court also in the statement?
jobo
yes if youve chance to compile a defence statement ( examples on here) do so,

ive never bothered , but then your relying on them to take accurate notes of what you said
blackheathbaggie
QUOTE (jobo @ Mon, 4 Aug 2008 - 17:54) *
yes if youve chance to compile a defence statement ( examples on here) do so.
i've tried to access the examples on here but for some reason i can't.
blackheathbaggie
Been for the pre-trial revue this morning and the case was adjorned so that a trial date can be set next week when the CPS know when the operator of the camera is available, I hated the experience and it seemed like the Magistrates wern't interested in what i had to say, only the Prosecution. i asked for the operator to attend court for the trial so that i could question him that all the checks were done correctly which was granted, i then asked that i may get a copy of the full video of the alledged offence so that i could check the location of the offence and that the correct procedure had been followed, the prosecution argued that this wasn't normally allowed because of the cost. I countered that without the video I had no defence. Eventually the Prosecution agreed to arrange for me to view the full video at a place where they are kept to which the magistrates agreed. Can they do this? I felt like a rabbit in the headlights and was left wondering why i am bothering, maybe I should just give them my licence now.
Durzel
Based on what you've said on here it doesn't sound like you earnestly believe you weren't speeding, but in fact are just looking for everything and anything that may or may not end up exonerating you on a technicality. This, as remarked already, is not a good foundation for a defence - you have to present a genuine reason for why you need the information you are requesting.

You have to appreciate that asking for each bit of evidence "just for the sake of it" does not give the impression that you actually have a defence for the offence, but that you're hoping to find a defence somewhere along the line.

Just my 2p - sorry for any offence caused. I'm all for people fighting the good fight when there is genuinely doubt over the process/charge.
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